Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, so welcome to our. Rich, I think this is our third co hosting of the new iteration of the Labyrinth, correct?
[00:00:12] Speaker B: I think so, yep.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: One of the things that Rich and I have been talking about and I've been talking about in the circles of my friends and cohort is kind of the male loneliness crisis, as some people have addressed it.
And so I thought it would be really interesting to bring some younger men together to talk about their experiences with it, to share, you know, what their. What your direct experience is of that, if you agree with that, if you don't agree with that.
And Rich and I have been talking about how Scott Galloway, particularly, who is. I think he's mostly like in Economist. Am I correct about that? Rich?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: I think he's an entrepreneur, actually. He's. I. I don't know what. What his company is, but I think.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Well, he's a professor, too, at nyu.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think he's like an economics professor, I believe, but he's definitely an entrepreneur as well.
But anyway, recently, like, over the past year or so, he's been talking about what he calls the male loneliness crisis, and he has some reasons for that, which we can get into. We can talk a little bit.
But in preparation for the show and before we introduce our guests, the thing that I wanted to bring up, which I thought was really interesting in looking up some data that, you know, the age of marriage is actually gone up significantly.
And. But interestingly enough, the divorce rate has gone down significantly as well.
So while people are waiting longer to get married, currently, as of 2024, the divorce rate is only 24%.
So, you know, I think there's something to maybe talk about with that, too, that, you know, people are being more intentional about their partnerships.
So in 1989, the divorce rate was hovering around 50%, and in 2024, it has dropped to 24%.
So I think that is also something for us to, you know, potentially throw in there. But I just wanted to offer that as a. As a fr.
And so from there, I would love to introduce our guests and if you all could just give a little bit about yourselves, your age, and maybe just a brief bio and connect that bio with your experience of how close your friendships are. Are you able to create close and meaningful friendships?
And also your experience dating?
Are you interested in dating?
If you are interested in dating, what does that landscape look like for you? How do you end up meeting people?
How does social media play a part of that? Or dating apps or any of that? So I'm just going to Open it up for.
Maybe we can start with Omar to begin.
And please just jump in and share anything that you feel comfortable with and that.
[00:03:27] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me.
My name is umar, I am 31. I know I'm a little bit outside this scope I guess of.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: No, actually you're right in it because we're doing Gen Z and Millennials so you're, you're right in the sweet spot.
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Oh good.
So you know, I, I am a, I guess kind of a little bit about me. I'm a working multidisciplinary artist, poet, musician.
I've done numerous stints and theater industry as well. Directing, writing, you know, all that acting I was in, I did Shakespeare and music with that too. But now I'm kind of taking more the music route where along with Tyler, I am a co founder of a local band here called called Night Owls. On the side of like meeting people and connecting, friend.
Connecting with people and friendships. You know, I feel like I've had a pretty, pretty tiny social group.
Really the most active social group I've had is my band.
I don't really know.
I don't really get out too much apart from maybe my shows and like just a couple outings here and there just to watch other people.
So really my social life is pretty much that in my main social life anyways is my music. Of course I go bowling, I'm in a league and I also do archery with a local group here called the SCA Society for Creative Anachronism who are a.
Almost like a medieval type, I guess, role play type group. I don't, I don't know what the right LARPing, I guess.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: LARPing?
[00:05:47] Speaker C: Yeah, it would be the right word. So I'm kind of into that though I don't think that has particularly transferred or carried over into my dating life which is, you know, I've been kind of been at this for pretty much almost a decade, actually over a decade and it has still not resulted in really anything.
I'm still single, still without a date ever.
So. And, but, and, and that kind of makes me wonder like sometimes by, by now, by the age of 31, it's. I've kind of not been as eager to engage with it because it's just to me personally, it just, it just takes too much effort and there's putting in all this time energy, effort just to me doesn't feel worth it anymore. So I have my band to focus on, I have my bowling, my archery to focus on. So I, I necessarily don't even know if I have this space.
I mean, I'm open to a connection, but I don't know if I have the.
I guess the mental space left for it anymore. Like I want it, but I don't know if I have the space for it. I guess that's too. Without giving away too much because we'll unpack this as. As the time goes on, but this is to intro. It is kind of where I'm at at the moment.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: That fits the.
Hey, go ahead. Sorry, Liz.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Oh, no, I was just going to say that, you know, thank you. That's a. That's a really nice foundation that you laid there.
Really appreciate that. Thank you so much for sharing.
Before we introduce Tyler Rich, was there anything you wanted to add on to that or.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: No, no, no. I was just remarking that a lot of what Umar said sort of fits the. The demographic kind of statistics for very.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: That around that age is all.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Very on point. Yeah. Okay, thank. Thanks, Umar. Okay, Tyler, please introduce yourself.
[00:08:21] Speaker D: Hey. So, yeah, thanks for having me here. My name is Tyler. Yeah. I am 29 years old here and like Umar mentioned, I am in a band with him here. I play keyboards. We started the band probably about like good three years ago. There's a branch off of like an old band too, so we know each other for quite a while. I've been at that. Another thing I do is I'm a poet too. I usually go to like open mics, like every other Wednesday, a local one here. So that's how I started going there. I was. I became a regular there. So like I would usually write a lot. Like sometimes like my poems to be like about just kind of like life experiences, things I've done or just sometimes feelings are just like things I've done. Like, like events I went to, things like that and sometimes even about the music too.
I did do theater too, a little bit a couple years ago. I used to be pretty active at that last show I did for theater was a year ago. It was at a local theater called the American Repertory Theater. It was for original play called the Informer. And that play actually happened to win an award too, an arty award, which is cool. So like that's something. Accomplishment. Yeah, I think it's an accomplishment. I have that like I'm happy with. Happy with. I don't have any theater shows at the moment, but I'm open to doing more theater, but just been kind of doing music lately. And from there I'd say that's been going Good. And in regards to, like, meeting people and things, I feel like that's a good way to, like, make connections too, because I feel like whenever I go out or anything like that, I always. I sometimes will go out to go see friends of mine that are playing, and I make friends with that. I go out and watch them there. I sometimes make friends with the other bands who are watching too. And I make friends with the bands who, like, we play with on a set too. Like, I like to just go out sometimes and, like, for see local music. That's one of the ways I. I like to go out and meet people is just by, like, the music scene, I'd say, and like poetry too. That's how I meet. Make the most friends nowadays through, like, theater, music, and poetry, I'd say. And in regards to dating, I'd say I am open to it. That is something I'm interested in. My last relationship was about maybe a couple years ago. It was like before COVID started too. And we'll get more into that, though.
But yeah, I'd say I'm still open to it. I'm currently single at the moment.
At the moment right now, too.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Fantastic. I guess one of the questions. And maybe this is a little bit different or, you know, whoever wants to jump in on it can.
But.
So when we talk about the dating, let's just kind of jump into that piece first.
It sounded like. And please correct me if I'm wrong, Umar, that you were talking about. If dating happens, great. Like, if I find a connection, great. But I don't want to really put a lot of effort into it. And that also, I think, is trending with. What I'm hearing in that space is, you know, a lot of guys are, like, unwilling to put in the effort anymore because it doesn't yield positive results.
How we go about finding those partners has changed. Right? Like.
Like using dating apps, right? Like what. What are some of the pitfalls of that? And do they yield positive results or do they not in your experience?
[00:11:20] Speaker C: They. They definitely do not yield positive results. Like, great. If dating apps work for you, great. But listen, I do feel like dating apps are a business. They are there specifically to make money that you're gonna.
They're gonna find their ways to keep you hooked, to keep you spending money, to keep you swiping.
It's a business.
And especially in the US where everything is business forward, money forward.
That's gonna be like. I feel like that's gonna be much worse here. It's.
And, you know, it's I feel like the. You know, it's hilarious that I'm in a band and I'm about to dunk on social media, but social media has definitely had.
Has been quite detrimental, I feel like, to.
To connection and to dating because it's. It's the.
What's that word? The illusion of choice.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Tyranny of choice. Right? Is it tyranny of choice or illusion of choice?
[00:12:38] Speaker C: I've heard illusion, but it could be tyranny of choice where, you know, people.
There's like.
I don't know, because of such a fascinating.
There's. There's the only. The top. I think like 10, 1 to 10% are really benefiting from this, from the dating apps, from the sudden, I guess, the blast of social media where it's like everywhere and everybody's available just on the.
Through a DM and such things like that. I.
I personally don't connect like that.
I won't say my background about that openly because I just don't feel comfortable. But what I will say is that I liked connecting through moments, through little tiny, small moments.
And it's the slowest of all. Slow burns.
And.
And it's through poetry, it's through actions, is through storytelling. And I don't know if unfortunately now in the big 26, people really.
People really connect like that anymore. It's so rare, even especially rare. I feel like in a place like Buffalo, where it's a smaller city, so the. So the pool of people available is already like, smaller than, say, New York City. So the moments come less.
I. But there is a part of me that still believes that, you know, that connection is possible.
However, the amount of energy I've had to spend to get there, I don't know if it's worth the effort putting in that amount of energy, because if I'm spending that much energy and still not even getting to step one, it's like I could. I can spend that energy better somewhere else. Like, okay, it's good to have connections. It's important to have friendships, and I have those. I have a wonderful friends. I have Tyler. I have a few others in my circle.
So I don't.
I don't really see a need of spending that same energy to end up in isolation, to end up not with a connection. I can just focus on my art and my friends, I guess.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: And that's after pretty. I'll. I don't say lengthy. I don't know what that would mean. But that's after a history of really trying to communicate, connect via, like, dating. Apps or online communities and that kind of.
[00:15:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I have legitimately. I have spent, I think over 10 years at this point trying to even, even land a first date, getting a connection.
I've been through the carousel of app and I think in the time that I've spent in all of the apps, I've legitimately probably gotten like four matches throughout everything. I don't know. I don't know if that's like a fault of character or just people not finding me attractive or like just maybe the views I hold. But like that, that's like, that's like further thing to unpack and like,
[00:16:41] Speaker A: I think that your experience, Umar, actually is a reflection of kind of the, the landscape of online dating.
I don't think that your experience is unique actually, because, you know, the app that I've created, we did tons of research, literally spent a year of research before we started even building, and the data has shown that basically it's like the 10% of men at the top are the ones that are getting like, you know, repeated likes, and the 90% of guys just don't even get anything.
So. And part of that is because the dating apps tend to skew in terms of the genders that are using the dating apps.
You know, there's. There's significantly more men available on dating apps, so the women can be far more choosy, I think, in that regard.
So I don't think that your experience is particularly unique. I think that does reflect the data.
[00:17:44] Speaker D: Yeah, I think that could be true. I didn't think of it that way.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just wondering in terms of the data, I was thinking both of you guys are talking about is basically what Scott Galloway talks about all the time.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Figuring out this data about when you're trying to date online. And according to him. And that's sort of kind of what I'm hearing from Umar as well, that it's the online format just making that the, the kind of forum that people are using to, you know, to pursue romantic relationships is the worst kind of way.
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: I don't like what you're saying to do it because then it's like you're looking at people sort of like items in a supermarket instead of normal or.
[00:18:26] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: You know, organic way that people usually meet. Right.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: Because you can't look at people superficially like you. Somebody could be like really attractive, the best, most attractive, most handsome, most beautiful, and be the absolute worst person to be with. Like you have to. Yeah.
[00:18:47] Speaker D: Knowing the person too. Yeah.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: Right. It's. It's it's connection. It's. It's like values. It's what happens when things slow down. What happens when I guess a sandbank turns into a mountain? When you have to go through challenges together, when you, when life becomes life basically when things get in the way. Like how do you react to that? And I don't.
And this is why I like the more I guess the community connection aspect because like you, you don't get that by just swiping at faces.
[00:19:28] Speaker D: Yeah. And like that saying like just by reading about. So if you don't really like get to know the person by just really through the app. Right. It's better to like get to know them by like in person kind of just like the moments you mentioned. And like just an app, just like an app with like a pictures and a short bio doesn't really tell you fully about a person. Yeah, no, no, it's not the connection you build.
[00:19:45] Speaker C: Yeah, no, because like it's, it's. I feel like it's like you're putting out the best version of yourself. Right. So like there obviously everybody's flawed and our flaws make us beautiful in that way. But I feel like the, this, this idea of abs is like being the. Being the best, perfect, I guess, polished, curated version of you. And I really don't know if it should be like that.
Yeah, I don't know because that, that doesn't complete.
Give the complete picture of you as a human.
[00:20:29] Speaker D: And it could be behind a paywall too, like with some certain features with like the apps, like to even like look and see if you're not subscribed to like Tinder for example. Like I have both of them, like Tinder and Bumble. Like I, I cancel my Tinder because like I don't really use it much, but I use Bumble more. But you can't even look at them. Can't even look at to see who like you because you have to pay to see that. And like certain features are just locked behind paywalls, which I don't really like with somebody's apps, which is one of the reasons I don't use them too, too much. I have them, but I just, I just don't really use them that, that very much. Really.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: That's a big reason why women would reach out typically.
[00:21:02] Speaker D: Yeah, I think it had to be like where they would reach out first. That's how the settings used to be. I don't know if it's still like
[00:21:06] Speaker A: that just changed actually.
[00:21:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it was last year or Something like that?
[00:21:11] Speaker A: No, recent. Super recent.
Like literally in the past couple months. I think they said their son setting, women doing the initiation. Yeah.
[00:21:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:21] Speaker D: Okay, that makes sense. Actually, I think I've had a match once where I, I had to reach out first recently. But. Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I feel like that, that that feature had made Bumble stand out so much more, but I feel like now it's just, it's just like any other app now.
[00:21:41] Speaker D: Yeah, pretty much.
[00:21:42] Speaker C: And, and that's why I don't, I don't even, I don't even have any of the apps because I'm just like, what's the point? You know.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: So I have a, I have a question, a kind of a follow up question for both of you.
So it sounds like you are engaged in the physical world. You know, it's not like you're sitting in your basement. Right.
Kind of the stereotype of, you know, the, the you know, 25 year old sitting in their mom's basement and you know, they're not interacting with the world.
It doesn't sound like that's the case. So. But, but I also am hearing in what you're saying that even those real life connect, like even being in those real life settings, it's not materializing into connection, romantic connection. And I'm wondering if you could maybe, you know, talk a little bit about that as well.
Yeah. So like the, you know, one of the criticisms has been in terms of the dating world is that it's all happening online. Right. And, and that it's. That that one of the reasons for that is because people are having a harder time engaging in the real world either. They're not as, you know, they're not going out as much.
You know, they're not. I think, you know, I live in the Bay Area and you know, I think a lot of, even nightclubs and clubs have closed and you know, like there's just not a big. We still have it obviously. Right. But you know, it's certainly not as big as, you know, I'm 55, so in the 90s, man, I was out partying all the time. I was at clubs like literally almost every night of the week.
And you know, so met a lot of people through there.
Met people through like book readings and you know, kind of like when you said going to poetry groups in Buffalo, which I've been to those as well with, with Joel.
Yeah, definitely.
And so I'm wondering what that dynamic is looking like where you can actually physically show up in a space but there still doesn't seem to be that opening for a romantic connect.
So, for example, like, and I'm not saying that it's a good thing or a bad thing, but, like, I couldn't walk into a club and not have, like, you know, 10 guys approach me for wanting, you know, to have a date or whatever.
So. And I don't think that's about me. I don't mean that about me. I'm just saying that I think that was most of our experience.
Like, we walk into that setting and there's an expectation of like, oh, hey, like, you know, we're all single people and we're hoping that we meet somebody cool. And I'm wondering if that dynamic has shifted now in real world spaces where there's maybe a reluctance to approach somebody or there's a.
Or maybe reluctance isn't even the right word.
I mean, Scott Galloway will say that, you know, men have lost some of that social skill to be able to approach a woman confidently.
So anyway, I just kind of want to, you know, maybe just talk a little bit about that as well. To the degree that you're comfortable or willing to.
[00:25:03] Speaker D: Yeah, I'd say maybe like some reluctance could come from like, maybe, maybe because like I mentioned, like some places, like you mentioned that one place was closed and like, and like, maybe it's just because. Because of people just not really going out. Like, they just maybe spend more time just like on social media rather than like actual like just talking face to face. Like, maybe just talk more like on apps or whatever. Social media or like even like any, any really form, like that's not face to face. They just spend more time doing that. Like, maybe the reluctance also that can come to like, maybe just like, maybe just lack of not doing. Maybe just like spending more time doing something else. But like, also reluctance can come from like, maybe just fear of like rejection possibly too. Yeah, just like, maybe just thoughts, just kind of coming over, just thinking always. I don't know if it's worth it. I just, I don't want to go through. I don't want to. I don't want to get rejected or whatever. Could be like that or just. Yeah, maybe just pure projection or also just like, not really, like going out too much. It's kind of just using like just maybe going on like lymore, just like social media.
[00:26:01] Speaker C: It's, it's very.
That, that part was very compelling for me because, like, there's, there's like certain social movements that have happened and men who are still in the dating market who Are wanting to initiate. Are. Are afraid there are of labor of.
Hey, is Is my.
Is me approaching going to turn into a jail sentence? Is me approaching going to get me.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: Going to get me pepper sprayed. Like those are.
Those are things that, that was a
[00:26:40] Speaker B: natural dating ritual for me. I I usually get.
That's all right.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: I I and it also depends on location too, because in, in a place like Buffalo, in Buffalo, I do feel like there's a erratic, not a purposeful eradication, but just like maybe economic difficulty or something like that is the disappearance of third spaces. I've legitimately, in the past three years, I have seen two of my very important third spaces just disappear just like that.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: I'm sorry, can you just. For the audience, can you just define what that. That term is really, really critical social term right now. If you would just take a second to kind of explain what that is. That's brilliant.
[00:27:41] Speaker C: So a third space.
Because I did a research on that for one of my media things I'll which I will get on to later future project.
A third space is a place that is neither neither your home, neither your home nor your work. It is a completely separated, independent venue that where you can come to decompress, where you can come to feel safe, where you can come to be social.
And you know, one example I will give in Buffalo, for anybody who's maybe listening and is about to be traveling to Buffalo, Cafe Aroma is like our major, major, major, major third space for me.
[00:28:41] Speaker A: I just want to give a shout out to that as well. Cafe Aroma is the bomb. It is an awesome. So it is one of the best places in, in Buffalo.
[00:28:50] Speaker C: I I love Brilliant Space. I love supporting Michaela and Jesse Schmed Bauer. They're the owners. But anyway, there, there used to be a third space here.
Two of them, actually. One is literal, was literally called the third space.
And the other one was Healing Grounds, which was a cafe slash venue that me and Ty used to go to in like 2023, 2024.
And you know, that became a very critical hot zone for. For me specifically based on the, for the, for the development of the last connection, I guess very intentionally attempted to make.
And that space eventually burned out and burned out, meaning it closed.
And that connection is also kind of that same level anymore. There's definitely a little bit of distance now at this point. So I feel like the economic condition and the city that I live in, as beautiful as it is Go Bells has been to the unfortunate detriment of dating and connection because and you know, on Top of the social confusion.
The.
The.
Not the lack of willingness to initiate out of, you know, legal fear. I guess there's. There's, like, factors that have contribute. There's, like, you know, two, three, four factors that I've all conglomerated into somebody like me basically being like, yeah, I don't know if it's worth it. I'm gonna go to Good Bar, but I am there to play a show, and I'm gonna treat it like work. I'm.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: I'm not.
[00:31:18] Speaker C: So there's, like, layers to this, and. And it's gotten to a point where protecting my brand, protecting my band, and protecting what my friends have helped me build over these last three, four years is becoming more important than taking a chance at building a connection in a place where I'm there to do a show.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Brilliant.
I don't know, Tyler, what are your thoughts about. Oh, sorry, Rich.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: No, I was gonna. I was gonna ask the same question. I'm just curious.
You mirror those apprehensions or whatever.
[00:31:56] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I'd say that's kind of true about, like, that's the brand. Because, like, I mean, I actually have somewhat of a.
Somewhat of a small, like, recent example of that, like, protecting the brand. Like, back at that place where I talk about third space, there was. We were playing. We were playing there earlier this year, and there was a person. We were playing there, and, like, before the show, like, there's this person there who just kind of seemed to be, like, very interested me. Just kind of just very pushy, too. And, like, I was. I was kind of there just to, like, work, really. And, like, they were kind of. I wasn't very interested. Like, they just kept kind of just very pushy to me. I didn't want to, like, try to do the wrong thing because I didn't want to hurt the band, too. Like, that's one thing I thought of. I wanted to. I eventually told the person, hey, I wasn't interested, and that was like, a few days later. I don't really think about it. Like, at the time, I feel like I was kind of forced. Like, my hand. I was like, oh, I better like, not do anything. I don't. I want to play here again. Like, I don't want to mess this up for the band. I got to be careful with what I do. Yeah, that eventually, like, phased out, though. But, like, yeah, I feel like in the end, I was thinking of the band too. Like, trying to just Myself. Just protecting myself and also protecting my friends, too, because, like, I feel like if just One bad thing happened with that person. I feel like that could have blew up.
[00:32:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:57] Speaker D: Well, the band's chances to play there and anywhere, really, to play it anywhere, really. I was kind of cautious with that too.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:04] Speaker D: And, yeah,
[00:33:07] Speaker A: I just want to dip back into this idea of which I had not even thought about. So I really want to give appreciation to both of you for bringing that issue to the surface. Is a fear of retribution or a fear of, you know, like, I just, I didn't even think about it actually.
You know, that kind of. In this post YouTube MeToo movement. And also clearly, what is, you know, the current situation with the Cornell seven.
You know, that I can see from your point of view where kind of the rules of the game are changing. Right. And maybe there's an uncertainty now from men about what is the appropriate way to approach in a live. In a real situation. Right. And. And I'm wondering if so. So what I'm seeing, almost, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm seeing is like the online safe space is safe, right? It's. It's sort of a safe space, but it's not a very productive space to meet somebody.
[00:34:20] Speaker D: Yeah. That's.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: The real world is a more. Potentially more productive space to have authentic connection. But yet in some regards, it doesn't feel safe. And I would also say that it's very interesting because I think our focus is, you know, culturally is on it's not safe for a woman. Right. We don't feel safe because, you know, we're going to be aggressively approached or, you know, something like that. But I really want to appreciate that you're highlighting. It's also not safe for men.
And I think that, you know, it's really putting the society in a catch 22 about then where do you meet? Or are we in this process of trying to figure out the rules of the game and are we at a transition point, an inflection point somehow? And if I can take just one second to kind of throw it back to Rich, because he's a very like, he's a, you know, he's a cultural scholar. And so I'm just curious, Rich, from your perspective, kind of, you know, what. What are you observing or noting, you know, perhaps in the scholarly work or, you know, just your. Your thoughts on kind of this as an inflection point.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, like I said, I love this discussion, first of all, because you have an interview is only as good as the interviewer and the interview. You guys are extremely reflective and perceptive. About stuff, you know, so, so your anecdotal experience counts for something in that regard. But you know, I was thinking because when I was, when I was your age I was, I was a bartender. So among other things I bartended for, for several years in a local bar with that bands that played and stuff like that. And I was thinking that, that at the time I was there, if you were a bartender you never had to ever worry about lots of female attention or bands played there. And the same thing was true of the band members, I suppose, or male attention, I guess. I don't want to stigmatize, you know, that, that you know what, what gender relationships you're having. But it's just interesting that, that nobody ever worried about, you know, wow, I'm going to try to talk to somebody or something like that and it may lead to a lawsuit against me. That really is a, and you guys testimony. And I'm sure you, you know, you talk to other, other people, other men in your age group, they obvious, they must mirror reflect the same experience you guys are having. You know, now that I thought of it and this is for anybody I know, you know, at least you got as much data about this stuff more than I do about these kind of issues. But I wonder if, if the same thing is true for if this is mainly a heterosexual man problem them.
Right. I mean, I don't know. The gay men, gay women have have a completely different sort of socialization process. I, I, I don't know. I mean something I'm not clear about or is it pretty much the same?
[00:37:25] Speaker C: You know, my, my exper. That hasn't like largely, very largely affected my experience, to be honest with you. But it has what it did do for me. The one, the good thing that it did do for me is in this, in this last connection that I had with this person, it opened up conversation because like this person, what's said and you know, felt largely, very, very largely and feel unsafe with men and could open I guess that conversation, could have that kind of conversation. I don't know. I could be completely wrong.
But this is like purely, purely what my experience with this person was.
There's definitely like more openness when, when that's the case. But yeah, I don't know for like anything outside of that that's very specific connection.
It's been largely unchanged. It's been largely pretty much the same.
There's Go ahead.
[00:38:49] Speaker A: Oh, I just wanted to say that like I think in response and again like, I mean I feel so blessed. I mean I'M from. Grew up in Syracuse and went to school in Albany.
Spent time in Buffalo. My kids were raised in Rochester. Like, you know, I'm a New York kid, but honestly, I feel so grateful now to live in the Bay Area, because I do feel like there. I feel like we're always, like, a little bit ahead of the curve in these regards, more progressive, a little more aware. And one trend that has been increasing, which I think is addressing some of these things that you're talking about are our intentional events.
So, for example, you know, just two weekends back, I went to an intentional rave. Basically, it was like an intentional rave, and it was called Heartthrob. And there's similar groups.
There's tender riots, there's like, ecstatic dancing.
But.
[00:39:57] Speaker C: But.
[00:39:57] Speaker A: But the thing about these groups here. And again, I don't know, I'm not aware of these existing in Rochester or other elsewhere in New York, but maybe New York City, but. But here in the Bay Area, these. These dance.
Basically. It's like a company that comes in and they take over a space and. But you have to be vetted, Literally vetted. Someone has to invite you. That has already been.
And so you get invited based on a recommendation. And then before you go in, you have to agree literally to a terms of service that. And the main thing is consent.
That is the number one. There's literally a paragraph about what is consent? What does it look like, how does it operate in this space?
And if something happens in, like, someone complains about you, it's a pretty, like, hardcore zero tolerance policy.
Um, and these are happening all over now, the Bay Area.
And so I will tell you that, you know, having gone to that event and having frequented multiple of these events now, wow, what a difference. It is like the whole. Oh, my God, it's just like a whole different world than, you know, me showing up in the 90s to a club and, like, wondering how much I'm gonna have to, like, you know, kind of put on my armor and, you know, kind of, you know, keep the wolves at bay. And at these events, you can't even touch somebody, literally. You cannot physically, like, tap somebody on the shoulder without verbalizing consent ahead of time.
And. And I saw these beautiful. Just amazing and beautiful connections arising in that space. And. And so I wonder if if, like, I'm seeing these, like, you know, these kind of intentional raves, as I'm calling them, maybe they're kind of coming in at this inflection point to try to set a new culture, to try to establish a new Set of rules. And at this event, I mean there were more than a thousand people there. This is not a small thing. It was massive. It was massive.
And, and so they had, you know, just to kind of like give a little slight more context for it is that there's a whole like, you know, there's an hour of just like you come and mingle and like they have food. It's like a potluck. You bring food. It's like this, it's a whole community event. And then after you're there for an hour, they literally have a ceremony.
They have a welcoming ceremony with like a gong tension and prayer and non religious. Right. This isn't a religious thing. It's like we are all one. We are, we are all here together.
And I'm telling you, if that doesn't like set a totally different vibe and tone then. And there's no alcohol, like zero. You are not allowed to be under the influence of anything while you're there. There's no alcohol, no drugs, no nothing. They don't serve anything and you can't show up and so on substances.
So it's like I think that we're trying to sort of figure out how to create these new spaces that are providing a social structure that has that safety around it.
And it's just such an interesting thing because it isn't just the women that haven't felt safe. Right. I really appreciate you saying that. It's been the men who also don't feel safe.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: The reason for not feeling safe is different, but it's still an issue of safety. And if you don't feel safe, like safety is at the, you know, the base of our needs pyramid. If we don't feel safe, then love and belonging, which, you know, kind of comes after that, you're not even going to get to that point. You're not going to take the risk because you already don't feel that sense of, you know, security. So I just want to kind of bring that to the surface too.
[00:44:18] Speaker C: See, I feel like that's the thing I, that the way, the way I build thing is on the basis of safety. Like I have, I know I built connections with people who have very, you know, very dynamic disabilities and very vulnerable disabilities. And that takes a lot of trust, a lot of safety to let somebody in, to let somebody see you in a really. In a hospital bed for, for two months. And that, that's kind of like that, that was like a more recent thing and I've written art about that particular connection and that's definitely.
I feel like the. The number one thing is it's developing that safety, and that's where the slow burn comes in, because I don't do things, like, really, really fast. Really, you know, like, oh, excitement, fast butterflies. I can't do that.
I just can't.
That's just not my pace.
So I do things very slowly, very intentionally, and, you know, having boundaries and safety conversations very early on, because that sets the background for the whole relationship. And that's what kind of got me into. Into that space of. I don't know. I. That's kind of like. Safety for me is definitely very important. You know, every. I feel like everybody deserves space safety, and that's more.
More important now. I feel like it's gonna be way more important now in relationships with everything going on in Cornell and, you know, everything since the advent or since, you know, me too, and all those things. So we definitely, you know, us as men definitely need to be, I guess, more aware, more mindful of how we also carry ourselves, what kind of energy we're giving. Tyler, you want to add something?
[00:46:54] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, pretty much I was saying the same thing. I don't. I don't. I don't really know what to say about that. Kind of the same thing. Yeah, I agree.
[00:47:01] Speaker A: So safety feels like a fundamental value.
I just want to wrap that thought up. Yeah. So safety feels like a fundamental value, and I think that that's absolutely the case for women, too. Right. We've been feeling that for decades. Right. Of like, can I walk into a space and can I feel safe? And also, even online, can I feel safe online?
Right. Like, I can meet somebody online and talk with them and have a great conversation, and then that person is completely different in person. I've had that happen multiple times as well.
So safety. It's like, I really, really appreciate you bringing out this idea of safety and how we need to really rethink and restructure our social spaces to make sure that people are feeling safe, to engage.
[00:47:55] Speaker C: And I can have a thought now about, you know, something.
Is my family gonna see this?
Who's gonna see this? As is, you know, everybody in. Are people in Buffalo gonna see this? Is this gonna be reposted to X or whatever?
You know, definitely say it's. It's that thing of safety and Internet safety, and that's kind of.
It kind of, for some people, it would make them pull further back, whether being men or women. I feel like it would. It would make them pull further back. I was able to gauge it and lean into it a little bit. But not everybody's going to be able to do that, I feel like.
So I feel like Internet safety is definitely way more important because.
And it can either really make a connection or break a connection, because some people go.
Become really famous and they get their connection that way, and some people get really famous and whatever connection they might have had could be like, oh, actually, you're, you're getting too much into the public eye. I don't think I want that life.
So I'm officially done.
So, like, there's like, layers to that that can, that can go either way, public.
So. So it doesn't matter. Like, I feel like if, if, if you're putting something out in public.
Yeah.
[00:49:39] Speaker D: Anybody, somebody, people are gonna catch on. Yeah.
[00:49:42] Speaker C: Content.
What do you call it? Content.
I can't think of the word. When you do something too many times,
[00:49:51] Speaker A: thing that came up for me as you were talking was it's like a catch 22 almost, because social media is the place where you're building those connections, but it can also be the very place that it can be the most unsafe in a way. And I think you just shared that, right, That a lot of the issues that young women are facing on social media, and, and then you're also talking about being in the physical world, right. And also that feels unsafe. And. And so you withdraw more from the physical world, you go more into an online space, and then that online space becomes unsafe. And so it just feels like this kind of, you know, like you're, you're being like the, the. The space to be authentic, to make authent literally being squeezed out in both directions.
And I'm wondering if you're agreeing with that assessment, you know, if you agree with that kind of generalization or if you can add. Add to that a little bit. Tyler.
[00:51:04] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, I agree because I actually have an example that actually goes with that. So, like, I mentioned before, like, like how you mentioned, like, sometimes like a safe space or some kind could be weaponized against you kind of, or you don't feel safe with it. I can actually give an example that, like, my last relationship, so, like, I actually met the person, like, through social media, through Instagram, like, things.
Yeah, things with us were pretty good at first, like, pretty combat. We liked a lot of the similar things, like big. We're like big gamers. Like, we were big wrestling fans too. And then like, eventually, just one day, things just went south all over. Like, one kind of mistake I did. So like, apparently that stuck with her every Single day of the relationship, she never let that go. Every single time, like, she thought of it, she'd bring it up, fight with me all the time over it. I apologize many times, like, said my side of the story.
No, that wasn't enough to still bring it up all the time. Even after what that damage did to me, like, still would bring it up that I didn't like. And, like, it just became too much, and I just eventually kind of. And like, how you said weaponized. She weaponized that thing that happened. Use it against me a lot. And actually came to the point where my old Instagram that I was on when this happened, I actually deleted that account. I did. Just because I didn't feel safe and I didn't want to have to, like, deal with that kind of BS almost every single day. So I deleted it. So. And then eventually, thankfully, this whole thing ended like. Like, about, like a year later. Like, one day, I just kind of just was like, you know, this kind of thing is happening. This is a lot. It's not safe. Why are things being weaponized? Why Safe space is going away. And I just kind of woke up one day. I was like, you know what? I kind of don't want to do this anymore. And then just one day, fighting just got bad and it just kind of ended. So I'm kind of glad it did. It wasn't really. Didn't realize it wasn't really a good ending. But, like, I'm kind of. I feel like I learned quite a lot of stuff from that too,
[00:52:44] Speaker C: and. And kind of to build off of that. You know, this is kind of the reason experiences like that are kind of the reason why, you know, I feel like people are checking out because it's like, you know, you could.
You could do the right things. You could. You could do the best that you can. I mean, you may not do everything perfectly. You do the best that you can. We're all human. And it could still, you know, all it could take was like, one.
[00:53:19] Speaker D: Just one. Just one mistake. And they can just. People could just remember it. Yeah, right. They could just stick with somebody. Yeah, that's kind of what happened in my case. Yeah. Just one mistake and like. Yeah. Just became a focal point of one right thing that was not meant to be. Yeah, just one of Just one thing. Just one. Larger pictures became a focal point at one point. So it just became too much.
[00:53:39] Speaker C: It's the. It's. That's part of, like, the.
The. The main thing for me.
The reason.
Cause. The cause of, like, severe dating Fatigue is like listening to that as well. Because I'm like my brother in my band, my best friend went through that. And you know, why. Why would I want to put my. Both myself and also, you know, a need to not necessarily like protect, but also just look out for my friends, for the gents that I am in the band with. Like, there's that, that brotherhood as well too that you develop.
Yeah. With, with your mates.
There's so, so that becomes like more of your chosen family, more of the focus of your energy because that is, that are the people that you are, are with all the time that you make music with, that you build a community with, that you build beautiful art with. Like, that becomes your primary focus. So there's, there's not much room again, still wanting a connection, but not necessarily sure if there's much room left for that connection to grow anymore.
[00:55:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting.
Just one thing that's just popped up for me and it may not be worth pursuing in terms of the aggression from the conversation, but I notice there are a lot of what all three of you guys have been sort of mentioning are safety concerns, maybe in fears even, which occurring interestingly at a time when at least statistically, I guess you're more safe than ever, at least physically. Right. I never thought about the safety risks you're incurring online because when you're online.
But, and, and, and, and then it made me wonder. And again, we're picking on Scott Galloway a lot because he goes on and talks about these things a lot. The, the issue and, and throws statistics around. But one of the things he seems to identify about say your generation, you guys, is that, and in his estimation, I guess he has empirical data, if you interpret it that way, to back it up, but his concern is that your generation is, is perhaps overly risk averse.
[00:56:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:56:33] Speaker B: And, and, and that he, I get like he's. Well, look, you're raised in front of screens. We've got helicopter sort of parenting now. Right. To a large, with a lot of people anyway, no more, no such thing as latchkey kids anymore because you get reported to the, you know, service for an investigation, for that kind of thing now and then, you know, you're used to being in situations where again, in schools they don't let you take risks as much in conversation, public conversations, you're not allowed to take risks as much. And, and that's going to, according to Scott Galloway anyway, translate into people as adults who just don't want the hassle of, of things that you just sort of expected to be you sort of expected to be vulnerable. Yeah. I don't know. Does that ring a bell? Does that resonate with any of you guys?
[00:57:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:24] Speaker B: Do you think that's true? I think the nature of being raised and parenting for children and the way that you're treated in schools, you know, they're very offense, you know, nobody ever wants to offend anybody and all that. I sound like some kind of a right wing punishment wondered, I guess. But I don't mean that I'm just the opposite. But I'm just wondering if, if you combine all those factors in the way kids are socialized now, does that translate then into a world where people maybe shy away from safe space, third spaces because of, you know, safety issues? And again, before what used to be considered acceptable, like offending people in certain respects. Not that I'm. Not that I'm in favor of it or I think anybody should be callous, but you, you had the space to do that in ways that you don't now, I guess. And that it seems to me if he's right would probably make younger men less likely. It's just easier, right? It's easier to have relationships online from an arm's length. It's easier to just not pursue relationships that you think are going to be a hassle.
I don't know what I'm talking about. What do you guys think?
[00:58:37] Speaker C: Well, for me it's, it's not like a hassle, like, as, as in like, because I have personal reasons as well, which is like mostly like mental and emotional fatigue.
[00:58:53] Speaker A: I'm like, so if you could just take a second to just, you know, give us our audience, just a brief understanding of what that is.
[00:58:59] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
So I discovering or talking about first about spoon theory. But what I will say is in chronic illnesses, people who are going through these chronic illnesses and my illness isn't, you know, I don't have a chronic illness like that. So I use a spoon. Theory is like a more mental and emotional aspect, but in, in spilling theory, it's chronic illnesses. People with chronic chronic illnesses have a certain allotted amount of energy that they can put towards a task. Certain spoons. So, you know, you use up a spoon, say for example, for doing laundry, and then you use up more spoons to, you know, talk to somebody. And by the end of it, by the end of the day you're completely out of spoons. And then somebody contacts you about, hey, there's a. This band playing at, at Milky. Do you want to come up? Do you Want to come play? Do you want to come watch this band with me? And then you're like, like you want to. The want is there, but you don't have the energy to do it because you're completely emotionally, mentally, physically, completely spent. And that is kind of how I understand spoon theory. It's probably, it's obviously not going to be a dictionary definition.
[01:00:43] Speaker A: It's beautiful. You described it perfectly. Yes,
[01:00:48] Speaker C: but that's kind of like what, it's what it is.
[01:00:53] Speaker A: So I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take you off your main point. I just wanted to make sure that our listeners understood what that is and maybe just to help you tie that back in. So can you connect that to this idea of maybe not having that emotional bandwidth anymore to kind of seek a partnership? Is that where you were going with that or.
[01:01:16] Speaker C: Yeah, so, so between, like, you know, between like, really intense therapy sessions and say, for example, I have a show that week. I'm doing bowling, I'm in archery.
I'm. I don't know if you've heard of the term activity jail.
So that's when you. It's typically used for kids to. That their parents would put them in activity after activity after activity. So they're constantly busy. But I'm applying it here to where I, I, I put myself in, into thing after thing after thing after thing so I don't have to, I guess, necessarily sit. Have to constantly sit with the, the cptsd, the emotions, the, the trauma of singleness and isolation.
So I'll purposefully do these things, you know, try trying out new skills to, to fill my time.
And that takes up so much of my energy.
By the, by the weekend, I'm like, so exhausted. I'm just like, I'm like, oh. Because sometimes even Tyler has called me up for like, hey, ever.
Our friends over at Evergreen Echoes, they're playing a show at this and this place at 11pm you want to come? I'm like, dude, I love to go.
I would love to go, but I'm so dead tired. And at 11 at night, I just can't do it.
[01:03:10] Speaker A: But I want to really dip into something that you said. I don't want it to let it go on unhighlighted. You said specifically the trauma of isolation. Yeah, and I think that that is kind of the, you know, for me, my interest in the, this topic, I think you just encapsulated it right there.
That relationship itself and being in a third space or being online, those are all their own traumas. Now yeah, right. And you just beautifully explained what, what that looks like from an online space. And then there's a trauma of being in. In the real world, too, because there's a fear of making a mistake or a fear of being misunderstood.
And so what we mean by that is, instead of it being an acute event that happened, it's sort of like an ongoing, like, you know, perhaps it started in early childhood. You know, it doesn't have to necessarily originate there, but basically it's just a chronic condition, and it's more nefarious, actually, than PTSD in a lot of. Of regards.
And, and I think that we are. And honestly, Rich, I think that that's probably what Scott Galloway is getting at. You know, I think he's trying to say, look, this isn't just a social. You know, I don't think that he thinks it's not a big deal. He talks about it all the time as a real crisis. And a crisis is a. Is a, you know, crisis leads to trauma. Right. The relationship between crisis and trauma is. Is very tight. And so part of the reason of wanting to do this discussion was to try to help people understand that we are really facing a crisis in this regard.
And it isn't just isolated. It's not just Umar. It's not just Tyler. You know, it's so many people that are. That are experiencing this within your age cohort and, you know, talk about some other ideas that we can generate to help approach this.
I think, like I said, you know, the group in the Bay Area, these kind of intentional raves, as I call them, I think are trying to address some of these issues, creating third spaces that are explicitly safe.
But anyway, so, you know, I just wanted to say, like, you know, thank you so much for kind of pulling it together and using that language.
And also to acknowledge personally, like, I. I felt it when you said that, you know, that that's something very deep and real for you and that's your lived experience. And, you know, I just. I really want to acknowledge that and, you know, express my respect and gratitude for you willingness to be vulnerable to kind of talk about that in a public space. So.
So anyway, I just, you know. Yeah, yeah, and. And I guess just as a closing, just as a debrief to kind of check in with everybody and maybe just give a statement about, you know.
[01:06:34] Speaker C: Right. Well, just to kind of, you know, this was a really wonderful, wonderful opportunity for me to be able to talk about my experience and share with you what, you know, experience for, like, us was. I want to Also thank you, Rich and Lisa for having us on and giving us the opportunity to speak openly on that. Thank you so much.
[01:07:02] Speaker A: Thanks again. Really appreciate your openness and willingness to.
To share publicly about your experiences. Thank you so much.
[01:07:10] Speaker D: Umar.
[01:07:11] Speaker A: Grateful for your participation. Thank you, Rich.
[01:07:14] Speaker D: Go for it.
[01:07:15] Speaker B: Well, me. Okay. I was waiting for. For our other esteemed guests.
[01:07:22] Speaker D: All right. Yeah. I just want to say thanks for having us here. It was fun to do this here on to here to hear everyone's experiences here and share mine as well. And it was good to learn a few things too. Like some of the data you mentioned, like, some of that stuff was interesting to me. And like, like also the spoon theory thing that I haven't heard that before. I thought that was interesting. It's always good to like, just hear other experiences and share them for others to hear too.
[01:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I agree.
Yeah. On behalf. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you guys both for. As far as I'm concerned. I think Lisa will have a more substantive outro from this. This conversation that I will. Than I will. So just, I'll just. For as. As far as far as I'm concerned, thank you guys so much as I said these, these interviews and exchanges and dialogues are only. Only as rich and. And profound as the people who are. And reflective as the people who are engaged them. And you guys were. I, I mean, I had no idea. I didn't know you guys at all before we, we. We. We did this. And this is Lisa's area of expertise, not mine. But I learned a tremendous amount from you guys both. Both as far as your personal experience goes and that testimony and how you related it and Lisa did to the. The. Some of the general empirical studies and trends and theories that people are advancing now about something that is as central to the quality of our personal and social lives as anything you could possibly discuss. So thanks, guys.
[01:08:47] Speaker C: Thank you.
[01:08:50] Speaker A: Until next time, please try to treat each other with kindness and enjoy and love and create safe spaces for one another.
