Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to this panel discussion co hosted by Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion. I'm your co host with Henry Curtella, Joel Lessees and I want to welcome everyone here today. Can we each give a little brief background about what we want people to know about us, like Ben, why don't we start with you and then we'll go to Andy and then Rich.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I think probably most, what I'm most marveled in is, is just how much I've changed. And you know, I mean, I mentioned before we started recording that when I was, when I was 19, I, I had this like possessive psychosis took over and I would, my eyes would be screwed up and I would be stretched in all sorts of weird positions with, with these somatic delusions and somatic psychosis.
And to come all the, you know where, where, you know what I mean? I, I would make the line. I dropped out of college and I dropped out of rehab and then I, I went back and got my master's and I worked at rehab. You know what I mean? It was what you fear the most. You can, you can, can really overcome in, in spiritual circles and in recovery circles and going full circle with, you know, the breath meditation where I feel so safe in my body now have, having been so unsafe in it before and having it been a place of delusion and discomfort, you know what I mean? I think, I think that's, I truly think there was a spiritual sickness or malady that left me a lot of work to, to address and there's been drastic changes. It's just been really cool. It's been a great journey, you know what I mean?
[00:01:25] Speaker C: And I, I love, I love that.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Andy, might you give a little background about yourself? What do you want the audience to know about you?
[00:01:33] Speaker D: So my name is Andrew. I, I have a master's in physics education and a bachelor's in physics. I've had several spiritual experiences. Diagnosed as bipolar in my twenties.
During the manias, I would have spiritual experiences. They weren't always healthy ones. I would definitely take it too far.
Went through a period about 10 years where I was an absolute atheist and then more recently realized I'm an alcoholic. I'm in a program, been drinking and drugging for 32 years. Now that I'm not, I feel almost as peaceful as, as I did when I was 8 or 9.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Rich.
[00:02:14] Speaker E: Okay. Hi, I'm Rich Brigo. I, I, I, I'm a prior, I'm a retired now. Retired. I still teach as an adj.
Philosophy and cultural history. Embry Rural University here in Central Florida where I live. I work in the areas, in terms of my scholarly work in, in the areas of comparative philosophy of religion and science, hence my interest in some of the things, a lot of the things you guys are saying and I consider myself, my approach to it is, is from perennial philosophy. And one of my other interests is the sort of comparative metaphysics of contemporary theoretical physics and spirituality. You know, I've done a number.
I'm always engaged, still engaged in a lot of scholarly projects and writing and publishing and stuff like that. But honestly, I love these discussions because the older I get, the more all of that just seems like complete bullshit. Like another ego, ego trip to distract myself from my, from my existential angst, literally that, you know, from, from when, from when I hit my teens and I started, you know, chasing women and doing sports to, to, to give my life value to, you know, now doing this stuff.
And so I really am, I'm in so many ways, I'm. I'm a cesspool of existential lengths. And whenever I come on these, on these, whenever I come to these discussions and I hear you guys and the insights, the life experiences and the struggles and challenges that you faced and overcome and the, and the, the learning that you've acquired from it, I always feel like the least spiritually evolved person in the room in this crowd. So, so that's where I'm at, I guess.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: You're actually, you're the key that unlocks much of the wisdom uncovered here because of your, Your generative inquiry, your, Your deep heart questioning and that you never allow yourself to arrive at any kind of like confidence that you're there. Well, it just comes to you in the forms of Henry or others. How sweet. Like, how wonderful.
[00:04:21] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: You make Henry look good. That's not easy.
[00:04:27] Speaker E: Thank you.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: With that segue, Henry.
[00:04:34] Speaker C: Well, welcome everyone.
So my background is. I'm a retired physician, psychiatrist working.
My specialty was child and adolescent. My college background was actually in biology. So a little more of a scientific background too. My spiritual path is mostly in the Sufi tradition of the Indian mystic Anayakhan. Indian meaning from India. Quite a universal open.
You don't have to follow any religion, which a lot of you have to be careful because if you talk to traditional Sufis or in spite of that being the basket that seems to hold gives me a lot of meaning in life. The gift that I found through that is how to finding the thread of wisdom that goes through the traditions and disciplines in our everyday life. So we can have fun being Buddhist or Catholic or a quantum physicist or philosopher or whatever.
But what holds us together? There's a thread going through that. What I found in the tradition that I'm mostly immersed in is how to find that thread and then what to do with it.
So for me, yeah, I say Sufi, but it's really being a perennial philosopher, a syncretist, creatively putting together, really respecting the traditions.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: But I want to ask a couple questions about your intro, Henry. One is that in relation to syncretism, could you just share the pools from which you draw, the traditions from which you draw generally, and the traditions you draw on for your syncretism?
[00:06:08] Speaker C: My interest in syncretism was because I was originally taught not just in the Sufi tradition, but other traditions too, that that was a bad thing.
It's another word for dilettantism. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, you think, you know, you're taking a little bit from Buddhism and a little bit from science. And here I am, no training in quantum physics, and I'm talking about principles of quantum physics and putting that together with spirituality. And so my teaching, what I was taught is not, you know, you have to be the Pure. You know, what is the Pure, whatever Buddhism or is Islam or.
Or whatever.
So as I explored, what I honestly realized is there's nothing that's pure.
So in the Sufi tradition, one of the principles is look to nature.
And it gets a little preachy about that. You know, the real Bible is nature. You look to nature to. To really inform us. So I look to nature, and nature's syncretizing all over the place.
I mean, what Pure, you know, you know, trees hybridize, there are mutations all over the place. Things have gone extinct. New things are coming into creation. Right? That's syncretism. So in the. In the Sufi tradition from Anayakhan, what he said is the era of having an avatar, one major prophet who's bringing in this message said, that's over.
So it's often said that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets. Used to be thought he was the last, best, greatest. And so the teaching that I've absorbed is, no, it doesn't mean that. It means the end of an era. The message that's going to promote harmony and beauty and the evolution of consciousness is actually going to come in. Collectively, we each have more of a note to play, more responsibility.
So you would ask about other traditions. I mean, so I can only do what, you know, I grew up Roman Catholic. I studied six years of Tibetan Buddhism. I didn't get too far, but I caught the thread pretty well. Psychiatrist, biology major in college. I read a lot of philosophy. And so it's not like I know all of the traditions.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: The Zen master Dogen says there are many languages, but one tongue. And so one language of the deep mystical realities is Kabbalah. Another language of the deep mystical realities is Sufism. And so when we begin to see that the shared source of the unified source of same thing expressed differently, it's.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: It.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: It's much more easy to be respectful, to be honoring, to want to set aside my understandings of Kabbalah to really open and absorb Sufism. How interesting what happens when I step out of my paradigm and into yours. Am I confident enough to do that? Am I. Am I not threatened by that? Sufism will somehow shatter my foundations in Kabbalah, which I think is a source of much religious fear that how. How strong is my foundation of faith? And so I just wanted to say that. And then I really wanted to touch on, not just Rich, but especially Andrew's heartfelt introduction and Ben's heartfelt expressions of wanting to explore things is like Pharaoh means evil speech.
So it's speech that's not rooted in truth. Moshe. Moshe. The name Moses embedded is like Ma. Moshe Ma means what? And so the teaching of Moses is like Moses asked what of everything around him? Until he turned it in on himself, and he said, what am I? And that's where the deep esoteric touching of Kabbalah and Kabbalistic streams come from. The wellspring is really this question, what am I? Which Moses, as an example, provides in his exchange with Pharaoh. How do you. How do you combat evil? How do you combat just the whole disillusion or the whole movement to disidentify reality as reality, the whole movement to bring people away from what is true. That is done with a simple. When you're hit, you say ouch.
A genuine expression from the heart is the way to combat evil. If I hurt, I say ouch with my heart.
That is bringing light to the world because it is true and from the heart. And it's not more complicated than that. That's the foundation. It's also the sum. The complete set, as we talk about in terms of science, that the complete set is. You don't need more than that. So when we talk about Ben talking about his dysmorphia and. And the psychosis that he experienced and how that leads to a comfort in the body now through his zazen practice, or Andy's, with his struggles with Substances and alcohol and is kind of like searching in faith and faithlessness, like these genuine heart expressions are now in this moment combating it is the response to darkness, it is the response to evil when we come from our heart. And I really want to say this because I really have struggled in how to assemble this and it's just happened for me now in this moment. But like the ways in which we combat, combat evil is really to articulate what is true and deepest in our heart.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: The Zen tradition, great doubt, great enlightenment, you know what I mean? When there, when there is great darkness and a lot of the seekers, you know what I mean? I, I, I struggled with substances myself as well while I was really, and peak mental health issues. And it's such, it's, it's a thirst, right? And, and it can, it's misguided, of course. It's not that you're not looking for alcohol, but it can be, it can be a relax, essential thirst, like, like Rich was talking about as well. It can be, it can be a real, there's something more out there. There's something, you know what I mean? It's, there's, there can be a real gift to the restless soul. But I, yeah, I felt a little bit, you know, I mean, I'd like to go further. Of course you're never done working, but I felt a little bit of that in my life where I, I, I, I'm a little more on the path I want to be now, you know what I mean? And less, less misguided with what I'm seeking.
[00:12:35] Speaker D: This is a wonderful room. I just want to begin with that. Ben was talking about substances and Rich was talking about the existential crisis of whining, of using alcohol to fill a hole, which is, which, in retrospect, it seems so obvious. It's a spiritual whole. And then as far as Henry's comments on nature, I guess we question whether people are the same as the animals.
Now when I'm at the zoo and I see an orangutan or a gorilla, I see something in their eyes that resonates. I see the awareness which is to me, basically human.
But I, I do question, like, are we different than the animals? Are we different than nature?
That's a question I often wrestle with. I know that the Taoists try to be in harmony with nature, which appeals to me, but in my gut, at times I'm like, people are different than nature. Just. And maybe it's only, you know, 5% different, but I feel like, I don't know, it's something I would. I would like to hash out. And I don't. I don't presuppose that I have the answer. It's just something I wrestle with.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: No, it feels like a genuine question. If I could just interject quickly.
The separation between human beings and other creatures, the word, the bear to speak. We are the creatures who speak. It's our speech that informs the difference between us and other beings. That we have language, and what we do with that language is very powerful. Both in Hebrew and in English, there's a strong link between word and world.
So we form. With our words, we form worlds.
But the Hebrew is. Is devarim, which means things.
But things are actually. It's the same word. Devarim or Deborah is word as well. So it's a thing or word is the same word and world are the same thing. And so we're h. I guess it's pointing that our speech can affect us in community.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: What.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: What is speech for? It's for community. It's for. It's to be. To speak and to offer my understanding and to be understood. And so with that, what have we done? We've. We've built some wonderful things and done some terrible things with our speech. But the capacity, our power as a human being, the difference lies in our ability to speak. I understand it.
[00:15:30] Speaker E: You know, you talk about all these different traditions, and they talk about our relationship with nature.
What. What are we talking about? I mean, I know I sound like a real philosopher, but I.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: But.
[00:15:41] Speaker E: But it's a. It's a substantial question. What. What is nature? You know, what, What. What do we mean when we're talking about nature and our nature?
Real question, I.
And, you know, because usually when we talk about it, and I'm almost wondering if this is like almost a Western bia. We talk about it in terms of what usually people would mean by sort of wild nature, Right? What you go out in the woods and, you know, and, and. And. And find. If you're a, you know, wildlife biologist or something. But is there something deep. Is there a deeper meaning of nature and our. Is our nature something deep? Deeper than just the sort of physical environment that we. The kind of physical environments we talk about.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: At the. At the core of your question, Rich, is the resolution, what is your relationship to nature? This is your question? What is my relation?
[00:16:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: The question becomes, if you are nature, it goes back to Moshe's. Moshe's question. What am I? What, what am I? Yeah. Because to resolve what nature is, you must resolve what you Are. Because you are nature. You are nature walking, talking, speaking.
And you are, you are nature. But when we say nature, we're talking about. We're talking about phenomenal reality. We're talking about the physical reality.
Yeah. Oreo'd with a soul pushed in. Your body is your soul. And so that. That place of soul and body is one. Yeah, there you go. There you go. There's your question. What am I.
[00:17:14] Speaker E: So what do you guys say to that question, that really, really deep question? And if your nature is. Is our fallenness, I guess, to use a Christian, sort of Judeo, Christian term, maybe Islamic as well, is our fallenness when we, when we feel alienated and when we feel depressed and when we, we feel a lack spiritually, is that because we are separating? It's now we are. We are nature separate. That's an instance of nature separating it from itself through us. I don't know if that's. Does that make sense?
[00:17:51] Speaker C: Right.
So for me, this is where I was thinking about physics, right?
We're making this artificial separation in our everyday language. So when I say nature, you know, you all know I probably meant the woods and the trees and the grass.
Things that we.
We don't produce, we can affect, but we don't produce it somehow.
But I can't think of anything that's not natural, because to me, if a plant sends out or a bee pollinates another plant and you get a hybrid, is that natural? Yeah, I'm part of nature because I got created by some natural phenomena. Even if you believe that God created everything, God created nature. God is part of nature. Everything is natural.
So really behind the ordinary, like behind classical physics, there's another reality that is more real. But we're not. We don't see it easily. You have to really start exploring it.
So for me, everything is natural. If human beings make a car, car has to be part of nature because it came from part of nature. I mean, where else did it come from? It didn't, like, assemble itself somehow, Right?
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: And so, and then there's, you know, the, the talk about the singularity and thinking about the new, new beings that are. Are being made. I don't mean aliens, the. The evolution of nature. Right.
So I could probably buy that at this point. Human beings are the part of nature that has the greatest ability to affect evolution, either by killing all of us or extending something somehow. We have more power to do that than other forces of nature that we can look at.
Doesn't mean better. It just means we have that. That's Exciting. And it's also scary because we, we could really do a lot of good and a lot of damage.
Is that natural?
Well, yeah, it came from. I'm part of nature. You can't get me out of nature.
So I have this. It's an artificial distinction that I think as we explore it, I'm thinking more and more, but there's a thread of, look at how beautiful this is.
Look at how powerful this is.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: That when those moments that leap out, that stand still, that transcend time and place in time and place, where some element slows time and stops things in a way that it's captured in a moment.
It's like God saying thank you for what you're doing in my garden. You know, we talk, often would talk about how the world is a garden and we are the gardeners. It is not.
This is not a predatory, free for all, although some see it that way.
As gardeners, our job is to combat the predators of this world and to tame them into fellow gardeners, to tame them, to illumine their. You know, every single being has an inherent mission, meaning and purpose from God, from, from the divine. Now, because we have free will, not all choose to honor the, the divine calling. Some wanted to choose their own, what they wanted for themselves, independent of what they were imbued as to do.
And so if we are caretakers, we are true bodhisattvas, then we know that the only way to resolve the, the dilemma of free will and reason for suffering in the world is the, the reconciliation of God's creation, evil and darkness and light juxtaposed.
That's why we have suffering. It's, it's the way in which God reconciled the full range of choice for us.
It had to be. But it plays itself out. It's got a time stamp. It's limited. It doesn't go on forever that we suffer like this. This says the suffering has a timestamp.
And so I just think about that in terms of like the Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson sharing that, you know, how do we want to care for our portion of our. Of God's garden?
And I think one of the ways God thanks his gardeners is with a, with a bridge shaking sunset and the horizon in Buffalo.
[00:22:41] Speaker C: We are nature.
It may be that, that one of the roles we have as nature is to be caretakers.
But there are trees who take care of other trees.
We don't. You know, we're beginning to learn. They're, they're talking to each other through their Roots. Right. So we're not just caretakers of something outside of ourselves. And mystics are forever talking about the unitive experience. Right. We're all one.
When we meditate, maybe we can get to this state of feeling. There's no separation. Right. That goes across a lot of traditions. Yeah.
In that state, there's no knower. There's no knowing, there's no known.
You lose it because everything becomes one.
You're part of the whole shebang. You know, Andy is a physicist, but also Ben, you know, you said you had this interest in karmic influences.
That's like the fuel of evolution. You know, it's. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. And in terms of we're being pulled towards something, you could call that karma, you could call it all sorts of things.
But I feel. And I don't know if it fits in with quantum physics about non locality and entanglement and all that, but there's something that's pulling evolution in a direction.
And I'm fascinated by that, by that too. And I'm wondering what you all think about that.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: I think a lot in my. With recovery and what I would teach. You know, so often people are in early recovery. When I would teach this to my patients, there's a. There's a long. There's a loneliness and a real yearning to be connected and a disconnection.
And I think this isn't that profound to anybody here. But we've. We've all been in a room of people and felt lonely, probably. Right. We've all. We've all been quote, unquote connected but still felt that disconnection.
And I think. I think some of the times I feel most connected are meditating alone or being alone in nature or being alone on a bridge, looking at the buffalo skyline. You know what I mean?
I think connection is an internal thing. And I think to speak to Joel's point about how do we. How do we cultivate the garden? It goes back to Henry's point that we are the garden. And when I. When I.
When I cultivate my own spiritual journey, I cultivate the garden. And when I. When I think of the welfare of others, I.
I imbue it. And when I steal from the garden, I steal from me. You know what I mean? I don't think there's a.
Andy was talking about how different we are from the animals. And it's. I think it's this. This conversation is leading for me a discussion of separation, of oneness.
And the more I realize how it is all connected.
I think I strengthen my relationship to others. I don't know about where we're headed. That's really interesting to me too. The karmic forces that. Where evolution is heading us. I don't know. You know what I mean? That's the best I can do. Is I. It's, it's. It would be cool. I would like to think we're getting better, you know, we're getting healthier and wiser and stabilizing the world. I don't always believe that when I read the news, of course.
I don't know. It's just everybody talking made me think about separation of oneness with. With. Because nature, as Rich posted, is it, is it out there? Is it, is it. Do I drive the mended ponds and that's nature or is nature in this room? You know what I mean? In this, in this zoom meeting even. You know what I mean? Of course it's. It's all of us. So that's what I got.
[00:26:23] Speaker E: I, if I can ask just a follow up question to Ben and Andy actually because I. In regard to what Henry was talking about, this theme of interconnection, Andy and Ben specifically.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: Do you.
[00:26:36] Speaker E: Did you find that you're maybe Joel as well? I mean we've talked about this a lot as well. Did. Have you guys, did you guys find that your, your moments of maybe break through to where the, the, the. The psychic and spiritual sort of torture that you were going through and the way you overcame it in moments of peace, I guess and serenity, feeling safe in your body again.
Were those moments, would you say instances of what Henry is talking about?
