Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's fascinating. And that's.
That speaks very much to what I asked you guys sort of in the beginning about how, how this notion of spiritual guidance through the Sufi tradition would work. And it's also a beautiful metaphor and about the, you know, the helping, having people find their. The note that resonates with the, the music of, of the infinite or whatever. And if you're, if you're trying to, to guide someone spiritually or, or, or find yourself at home in the world is to learn what your, what your note is. Is that, is that, that's the.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Really.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Is that the hard part? I guess it is.
[00:00:40] Speaker C: But not to close your swadharma. Howard Thurman, who was a mentor to Martin Luther King, a very impactful, active theory to practice guy, said, we can ask them what world needs. Ask what makes you come alive. What the world needs is more people who've come alive.
[00:00:58] Speaker D: What's so empowering about it is they're saying, find what they call your signature strength, what we're calling your note in life. What do you like doing so much that you can't stop, that you, you can do it forever and still keep learning and still grooving. And you could do it in your sleep. You're so excited when you find that.
Arrange your life as best you can to do it. Exercise that strength as much as you possibly can. And his research is when you do that, your happiness goes up, the meaning in your life goes up, your sense of having a full, meaningful life, that it's valuable, and the service goes up. And I think he's right on the money.
So, you know, do I ignore correcting what I think are weaknesses? No, but I don't think of them quite as weaknesses as much as I used to. I think of them as an obstacle that's preventing me from exercising my signature strength. That's the melding. What I was saying in the introduction, I love this where you're taking it from a psychological viewpoint, a mystical viewpoint. It makes sense philosophically to you, right?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:28] Speaker D: Doing something, action. Right. Do you really believe, and I'm asking myself this, especially nowadays with this political brouhaha, do I really believe that's going to get out my thinking, my meditating, my reflecting, my contemplating, my chanting, which is my way of praying. Do I really believe that vibration is going to make a difference?
[00:02:53] Speaker E: I was with a group of people who were studying.
[00:03:01] Speaker D: A.
[00:03:04] Speaker E: Pattern of healing that related very much to Sufi tradition. And so I was putting my vibrations as part of that group into the Mix.
And I was quite content with that.
You know, I mean, that. That satisfied whatever pangs of guilt I may have felt for not going out in the rain and waving signs not to denigrate that overt action as opposed to thought action.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Rumi has a wonderful quote that says, when I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world.
Now that I'm older, I only want to change myself. But implicit in that is this understanding that he finds his calling as he matures.
And one of the. The most. One of the things that I often teach in counseling and through. Through my teachings in psychology is that how do you. How do you know what you're called to? What do you lose track of time doing that. That's it. I mean, do more of that in a constructive activity way. So just that. That I think that a wonderful indicator of your contributions are when. What do you do when you. And for me, it was always writing. Writing was one of the.
I had an assignment in high school where I had lost track of time writing a descriptive assignment. And I had no language for it at that time. But as I look back, it was like a drag race of. The assignment was done before I knew I began it in a certain kind of way.
[00:04:40] Speaker E: When Henry was describing that kind of situation earlier, I was thinking of the concept of flow, losing. You know, losing that sense of time. Yeah, because you're just in the moment.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: In the moment as an affirmation of the relationship of time and flow or awareness or something greater than time emerges. What. What has that been like for people?
[00:05:06] Speaker D: So I had that with my Sufi teacher. We were. I was studying Tibetan Buddhism, and Kathleen was involved in Sufism, and I was stubbornly Buddhist. And I started to have some strife in the Buddhist sangha that I was in. And I. I got to know her teacher little by little. Took. Took a couple of years. And a Buddhist friend of mine said, because I. I asked her some advice about my struggles. And my. So my friend said, well, you. You really need a spiritual teacher. And I said, well, I took refuge in Buddhism with three different teachers. What are you talking about? He said, now they're not really your teachers. And then he said, what about this Sufi guy? His name is Shavadin. And I said, well, he's not Buddhist.
And I still tell my friend this. I mean, what a gift he gave me. He looked at me and he said, what the hell difference does that make? So I argued with him, but I heard myself saying, yes, but, yes, but, yes, but. So I decided I gotta. Really gotta deal with this. So there was a seminar I went to, and I cornered this guy. Cornered him. It was a dance meeting. So there was this big hall. Everybody went on a lunch break. I got them to sit down with me in the hall. Kathleen just has a riot about this.
And we had this intense discussion for, I think, an hour and a half to two hours.
And Kathleen said I was oblivious to everything.
Kathleen said people would be coming into the hall, look at us, and turn right around and walk back out. And then it was over. And I made my decision. And it's like five minutes to. I don't know how much time it was, but I was. That was the experience that I resonated with Joel. It was, you know, something really intense. Like that.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Is that, Is that. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: That's a great question you asked because.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I want to hear from you, Rich, but I'm wondering, is that called the sorbet? Like, is that Roomy and Shams? Was that the mystical dialogue on mystical conversations? Was that sort of an iteration of that, or might have that wrong?
[00:07:22] Speaker D: No, that was. I. You know, I never quite thought of it that way, but I think you're right.
Yeah, I. I just wanted to be alone with him. But unlike Roomie, I didn't do it for, like, how many months. So his students went and killed Shams. Fortunately, I didn't do that to my teacher. But, yeah. Yeah, it was. It was. Yeah, I think you're right. That's what it was.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah. That. That. That energy is deeply alive. And, And, Rich, I'm wondering, have you had that experience? I know that you have.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you, you. And. You and Lisa are very generous in seeing this dimension to my personality, because I would. No, I, I. One of the reasons why I've always identified with existence, existentialism, so much as a. As a philosophy is I don't. I have not. I don't feel that sense.
And, And I feel as though that's. That is what ultimately we're all looking for. As Heidegger put it, being at home in the world. That was his. That was his phrase.
And Krishnamurti said, you know, when you're doing what you love, you're. You're. You're. That's basic, that. That's the key that you. You'll find. You'll find every answer you want. You'll be. You'll be. You'll be at home in the world, and you'll. You'll. You'll find your spiritual path. If you. And it seems like that's what you guys are talking about in different contexts, right? And coming from different traditions. But actually what I was going to ask all of you and you, Joel, I know I've shared my existential angst with you enough, you're probably tired of it now, but I was curious and this is why I love these. Getting together with, with Joel and the, and the people and Henry, the people that surround you guys, is that you all seem inordinately compared to most people, certainly, and I know compared to me, attuned to what it is that enables you to know when you found that experience or that thing that makes you more at home in the world or that you love. And, and it seems like cultivating that is a spiritual attainment itself, right? To be able to be in a position where you know what your node is, or to be able to. That you're able to know what your note is. And I just wondered what you. What do you do to cultivate that?
If that make. Does that question make sense to you guys?
[00:09:51] Speaker C: How do you know when you're looking at a wall or when you're looking at a mirror?
I think when we have that moment with a teacher or with a parent or a loved one and we see in their eyes something we can ask, what am I seeing?
And the non. Dual. I think the teaching that all of us are pointing to is that I'm seeing myself.
And then it's easier to see in a teacher who's clear. Like it's easier to see in a mirror.
But with that experience, can I.
Can I take the knowledge from the experience, not just the experience.
And, and, and I do. And we do. And then we begin to notice what we didn't notice before in other people and then in trees and then in rocks and.
[00:10:55] Speaker E: No, I was to say, I have a number of those kinds of experience, most consolidated during the time I was actively teaching at an undergraduate graduate teaching program back in Connecticut. And one day at the end of a semester, in celebration, the class who was mature students, they're. They were all essentially teachers taking a master's degree in education.
On the way out, we decided we'd go get coffee. One of the students said to me, you are one of the most patient people I have ever met in my life. That's because you're a psychologist. And I said to her out of nowhere, no, you got that backwards. She said, what? I said, I'm a psychologist because it's an arena in which I can display my patients.
She challenged me with, well, what would you Be if you weren't a psychologist.
Again, out of nowhere, my answer was a bartender, a cab driver. And she said, wow. Then she realized that we weren't talking status.
She said, oh, I got it.
My response was, I got it too.
Because none of that was forethought.
It was just an answer to a question.
And so I think that that reflects for me that kind of moment when I knew who I was and where I was supposed to be, and it didn't matter that it was teaching that class at that particular moment. It's who I am.
That would be my. That would be my flow moment.
[00:12:42] Speaker D: Beautiful.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Did you have to? Did you have to?
I guess I'm wondering, you know, I'm saying, you know, you. You know, where. That you would. That you. You had found you connected on. With. With, say, a teacher on a. On a really profound level. And I, you know, I'm like, well, okay, but don't you need to. Don't you need to prepare to be prepared to be able to even recognize that right that moment? And now I'm thinking, do you. Don't you need to be prepared to be prepared to. To. To recognize that? I mean, I guess so. So what, you know, where does a spiritual path like that start? What. You know, what would you advise me to do to start that process?
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Every.
[00:13:26] Speaker E: Every once in a while, we meet ourselves on the road.
If I could tell one more story, though, I.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: It.
[00:13:34] Speaker E: It was this. I was. I was at a health spa for a summer vacation, and there was meditation and yoga and tai chi and all going on. And I made friends with the guy who was teaching meditation. Piece of the program. And we were out walking, and we had a group of people, and he said to me, would you run up ahead to where that path splits and tell them to take the path to the right? And as I did and said to people, go up here to the right, go up here to the right. One of the women in the group said to me, is this where we're supposed to be?
And I said to her, we're always where we're supposed to be.
So the preparation for me would be, how do I get out of my own way?
[00:14:20] Speaker B: To add to that, Bob, for Rich's question, Shinru Suzuki is his foundational work, Zenman beginner's mind, which is so special because his English was terrible. And he had, in broken English, had to form tesho or Dharma talks in broken English. And it came in with this profound clarity that in there he has a quote that says, it is wisdom that is Seeking wisdom. The very question itself answers itself in time.
And the Buddha also said this. The Buddha said to realize one's life form or the totality of what it is is as rare as the dirt on your fingernail. That's also in Zenman beginner's mind. But it's a quote from the Buddha that no dirt does not stick to your fingernail. And so too so few sentient beings recognize their true nature.
[00:15:14] Speaker E: Alan Watts says there's a taboo against it. So in our, in our world and.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: Given infinite time, maybe we can climb mountain probable on the spiritual path. And if I under as you talked about Rich's non dualism and the material and the spiritual, maybe the spiritual answer to the question of how to find the spiritual path from a non dual perspective is that there's no material and spiritual path. There's only the spiritual path.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: One of the most fascinating teachings from the Bhagavad Gita is when the Supreme Personality Godhead says to Krishna the wise lament neither for the living nor the dead. What is he saying? As it is the wise lament neither for the living nor the dead. And so the, the other aspect of that is that this very beautiful, you know, we talk about the benevolence and kindness and love of the universe, but in the Bhagavad Gita it also talks about there are four kinds of pious people and there are four kinds of impious people. In the most beautiful part of the whole Bhagavad Gita is that the Supreme Personality Godhead says I reward each accordingly. Both the pious and the impious are rewarded for what they are. That there isn't this punitive quality that the impious are given their, their, the fulfillment of their, their dharma, which is just different than the pious. But that there's a, there's a wonderful inclusion and unconditional quality of love in that from the Supreme Personality Godhead that says all are rewarded, all are given, all are blessed.
[00:16:47] Speaker D: Yeah. So if what you love is making money, you have to go make money. But you keep on. You don't nail your foot to the ground, you keep on. Once you get something, you don't let it master you. You learn to let go of it. And then you go for something that's even greater and deeper and whatever. So, you know, there's some mix about, you know, I like the positive psychology approach. You find what you love and then you arrange your life and depends how lucky we are with the lives we have. Like I feel very blessed that I have enough money I went to school, I was intelligent, and I had my pick of jobs that allowed me to play to my strengths. And I found people that I could. Could be my mentors and I could trust. And some people aren't lucky enough to do that. But I do think on mystical paths in particular, they talk about the importance of having a guide again. And this the. So I was reflecting on what Brian had said when I had that intense talk with my teacher. We were pretty much head to head. And I remember a look, and I knew he saw something in me that I didn't see in me, and I wanted it. And that's what did it. It was the glance. And I knew he saw something.
And there was an interesting thing. This is a story, but it's.
And this has a little bit to do with the idea of not striving. I remember I was with. This isn't the story. We wanted to say it. Anyways. I was with another Sufi mentor, and she was talking about, oh, you just have to be and not try so hard. And I just blurted out, because I was pissed off. I said, I spent a hell of a lot of money to come here and spend a hell of a lot of days spending all of these hours sitting on the cushion to not strive for anything. What are you talking about? You know, and even in Zen mind, beginner's mind, the effort of no effort takes a lot of effort to have no effort. So the story was when I first met my Sufi teacher. So I was just there to please Kathleen, and I decided I wouldn't like him. So I woke up, walk up to him, and he's taller than me, and he's magnetic. So I said, any advice for a Buddhist? And he said, buddha spends so much time worrying about the next life. They don't take advantage of this one. And then he walked away. And as he's walking away, he turned around and he said, and they don't hug enough. I can't. I mean, that's. That's what he said. Right? So you got to fast forward about two years. I'm on a Tibetan Buddhist path, Vajrayana Buddhism. The definition of that is you have spent eons, eons of lifetimes to get here, and now you're on a path where you can reach enlightenment in this one lifetime. That's Vajrayana Buddhism. So I'm spending. I spent six years doing. I couldn't get through the introductory practices. But anyways, I'm doing these retreats.
And this is Rinpoche, who's a nice Guy, and I like him, and I'm struggling, so I go see him. This is two years after the Sufi teacher has said that thing. And I want to talk to him about my spiritual life. And I'm feeling unsettled.
And he looks at me and he says, I recognize you now. Think about what, you know, this teaching about. Don't try so hard, right? So he looks at me and he says, I recognize you. You've been coming to all these retreats. Keep doing that. You'll have a much better life next time. And I said, thank you. Goodbye. I never went back.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Is that the reason for your transition from.
[00:20:23] Speaker D: That was the last. That was the last straw that. Well, my Sufi teachers. I mean, he can make mistakes, but he's pretty intuitive. And that was like. Like he told my fortune, keep on coming back for many more lives. It's like, you know, it was like. So I'm going. So part of what I would like to do for people is what Brian said. If I see something, I want them to look in the mirror so they can see. And they may not know what they see, but they'll know there's something, and I want them to want it.
And even if I can't put it into words, I can feel it. And. And people have. My teacher did that for me and a couple of other Sufis in the organization I used to be in.
It was so meaningful. Somebody came up who I barely knew, but we were Sufi, so you can get away with this. They looked at me and said, do you know you have a twinkle in your eye? And I looked at. It was a woman. And I looked and I said, actually, I do. And you notice it? She said, oh, yeah. Fast forward a few years later, I'm going through a rust spell. The same person comes up, says, do you remember that twinkle in your eye? I said, yeah. She said, what happened?
Said, I'm having a hard time. Do you know how meaningful that is? She saw me and she was saying, I love you. I see you. I want you to know it, and I care for you. I. You know, what a gift if I can do that for somebody, you know, and, you know, it doesn't have to be in words, whatever, you know, just that sense of, let me help you find your way, and I see you. I see something in you.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Is there something about the. The Sufi path itself that enables you to do that more than something specific about the Buddhist path that. That. That didn't allow you to do that?
[00:22:21] Speaker D: When I finally got over my thing with the Sufi teacher, I'D go once a year. He was in Florida. I would once a year with Kathleen, and we would do zikr mantra dancing. And I would cry. Now I cry at the dot. Drop of a hat. But I didn't cry in my. In my Buddhist things. And I would go, come back to Rochester. I would look at my. The Buddhist leader in the group, and I'd say, I don't get this. I do all of this Buddhist work. I go to the retreats, I'm doing the practices. I go to one Sufi seminar a year and I can't stop crying. And that was the difference.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Is there something about. Because I would think there is. Sufism, as far as I. I can tell, seems much more ecstatic and embodied. And is there something about the tradition and the practice of it that enables you or that welcomes or is receptive to emotion that the Buddhist path isn't?
[00:23:21] Speaker D: It's called the path of the heart.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it.
[00:23:24] Speaker D: Brian said it focuses on heart. Heart opening and love.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:29] Speaker D: And it's not like Buddhists don't do that or Hindus. I mean, all the paths. It's love and service, but. And everybody is different. So, you know, people come to Zikr and they get turned off. I went to Zickr and I turned to Kathleen and said, what the hell just happened?
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:23:46] Speaker D: It's like, you know, that's my path. I go to Buddhism and I get interested and I'm thinking, and I go to Sufism. And I cried and I finally gave up because I, you know, my heart and. And you know, my. Anyways, that's. That's what I. And I think it's known for that. It's called the path of the heart.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:09] Speaker D: But that doesn't mean the other paths don't have heart. It depends on what you resonate with.
That's important.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:17] Speaker D: You know, I grew up Roman Catholic in the. In the days, you know, Bob says he didn't drink the Kool Aid, I drank the Kool Aid. If you weren't Roman Catholic, you're done. You're going to hell. And really, that's the end of the world. And it's like, did I really believe that? I mean, that's so far away from what I really believe in my heart. So that's the difference, if that helps.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Henry, today is the first time that I really experientially felt and understood for you how the Sufi path was your calling, that you were absolutely. It was tailored, specifically authored for you that these encounters with teachers about multiple. The multiplicity of lifetimes, some future lifetime. And then the, the, you know, the dialogue, the sorbet with shahabedine, that those, those were checkpoints or gates that you walk through because that was. That's your path. That's absolutely your path.
[00:25:11] Speaker D: So when I was saying earlier, kind of like my metaphysics, I think of the divine and I don't like the word God, whatever that is, is like a tractor being.
It has an intention and it's going. I can go with it or not, but every stinking chance it gets, it's going to pull me to try to get me. And I can keep fighting it. I can finally go with it.
[00:25:36] Speaker C: Amen. Amen. It's true.
[00:25:38] Speaker D: Yeah, right. It's like. So I think like going back to the beginning of this when Bob said, I don't know what's going on. Right. But there's a tractor being that if we can find it or let it find us, it'll start pulling us in a direction that will get us through this.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: But just a couple things real quick I wanted to add and is that one of the ways that I found my own dharma or calling or work is actually, you know, identify quality of Sherpa as what I hope to be. But really in a karmic way in my. I really feel like I found my way because I was so often trying to help other people find their way.
Like I always have this quality of the. The whole raison d'etch the whole mo of my life is really to cultivate the skill of others before self. So I really want to place others needs and concerns before my own. Not at a level of detriment or threat to me, but in the ways I can skillfully negotiate others experiences before myself. That's it. I'm done. I just want to do that now. I found it. But I feel like it's a generative quality of trying to offer for others what they needed has returned to me and here I am. And so I wanted to add that as a way of finding one's calling or path is giving to others what you think that are best for them independent of your own agenda. And I wanted to also for some reason dovetail that with this wonderful poem that I pulled up by IKU IKU is a Japanese Zen monk, very irreverent.
And he has this wonderful poem called Raincoat and Straw Hat. And I just love this and I want to share it with you.
Raincoat and straw hat Woodcutters and fishermen know just how to use things.
What would they do with fancy chairs? And meditation platforms in straw sandals and with a bamboo staff, I roam the 3000 worlds, dwelling by the water, feasting on the wind year after year.
[00:27:58] Speaker D: Thank you for sharing that. Really. That's very soothing.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: The beautiful poem. Where. What is that from Joel again? What was the source?
[00:28:10] Speaker B: The source is iku. IKU was a Japanese monk. He was very reverent. He was known for visiting brothels and drinking. But when he received Inca, which is the dharma seal of transmission from his teacher, they sign a shodo, a calligraphy, sealing the awakened state and the ability to teach. And what did IKU do that? He burned it always. He was a big question mark about the certainty of Zen. If you had any certainty about Zen, he would bring a question mark to that.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: I love that dimension of Zen. Founder Guru Nanak was traveling in the Middle East. He supposedly traveled all over the world. And one of the stories is when he was traveling in the Middle east, he was sleeping at night with his feet pointed and pointed toward Mecca. And some imam, local imam, started kicking him and screaming at him and said, you can't do that. You know, he went and said, why? I said, because you're, you're sleeping with your feet toward, toward God. And, and Guru Nanak said, well, show me a place where God is not, and I'll point my feet in that direction. And world religion, you know, comparative religion, I think that that's a great story because it's such a universal truth about non. Duality.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Non duality. And, and absolutely. And let me just read the second eco because it caps out. This, this whole spirit, which is his poem is called I Hate Incense.
I hate incense.
A master's handiwork cannot be measured, but still priests wag their tongues, explaining the way and babbling about Zen.
This old monk has never cared for false piety.
And my nose wrinkles at the dark smell of incense before the Buddha.
[00:29:59] Speaker D: So, so how about if we go around for last thoughts? So we started with Bob. So let's go back to Bob again now.
[00:30:07] Speaker E: My thought is gratitude for all the sharing of insights and refreshing thoughts.
[00:30:17] Speaker D: Yeah.
And Brian.
Yeah.
[00:30:22] Speaker C: Beautiful to be with each of you. Thank you.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Rich the vagabond on the road to truth. Myself, I really appreciate every time I do anything, let's talk to Joel or do one of these, these, these, these sessions. I meet so many fascinating, really, truly knowledgeable, wise, most importantly, guides I'm, that I'm, I really, deeply, deeply need to connect with. I, I, I'm, I, I'm profoundly grateful to you guys for, for sharing your wisdom. It'll help all. It. It's been invaluable to me.
[00:30:57] Speaker D: Thank you, Joel, dear friend.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Henry, I just want to thank you and Bob and Brian and Rich for a wonderful evening of sharing. And I hope each of you know how impactful you have been tonight.
[00:31:13] Speaker D: Yeah. I want to echo what you've all said, and I feel something that has grown in me, and so thank you.
