Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Ever wonder why the more effort we exert to seek happiness, peace, and fulfillment, the more we may feel depressed, anxious, and empty? We perceive some code tapping within us, but we can't quite decipher its meaning. Our lists of pros and cons, our commitments to daily journaling or hot yoga, our carefully mapped out five year plans, all, all begin to dissolve, and we begin to lose hope. But now is when we are the most ripe, the most juicy, the most ready to just let go and fall into the magnificent heart of reality, the paradox of being in the world but not bound by the world. The labyrinth has a rich tradition rooted in this paradox. We enter these sacred spaces where universal being manifests itself with each of our steps, physically grounded with the weight of our bodies and the bliss of full presence. In my twenty s I came to such an intersection when my efforts became exhausted with futility, my despair became mental illness, and hope was vanquished. Somewhere along my healing journey, I was given the famous Rilka quote from a letter he had written to a young poet who was despairing over the uncertainty of his life as a writer. Rilke's quote has remained a touchstone for me for decades. I offer his words as the foundation for each unfolding conversation of the labyrinth, where there is no theme, there are no pre written questions, and there is no particular aim for the dialogues. I'm just honored to share space in the spirit of Rilka, to live the questions now, so that perhaps without noticing, we will live along some distant day into the answer. Welcome to the Labyrinth.
In today's podcast, I'm honored to join one of my closest spiritual companions, Shobita Kedlaria and her spiritual friend Ramesh Krishnan. I met Shobita four years ago at her organic farm and community in Andhra Pradesh. We immediately connected through a shared narrative of our complex maternal identities. Shobita is a trained dancer, holds an MBA, and left a thriving career in the textile industry to co found protovillage, a model back to our roots village that has become a magnet for educators and seekers from around the world. Most recently, Shobita took another, more personal leap, transforming her own journey as a seeker into a space of inquiry into the ways our identities often become the obstacles to awakening our purpose and interconnection with reality itself. We are joined also by Ramesh Krishnan, author of the urban monk Diaries, who inspired Shabita's journey more than a decade ago. As Ramesh Babu will share with us, his own journey began in his 20s, when he felt unsure of what to do, who he was and which path to choose. In his writing, he explores the eight chambers of the urban Sheolin, which begins with discovering the real nature of objects and moves toward a meeting with our mysterious eye. Shaolin is the temple, and we journey within the temple of reality as we walk the labyrinth with intention, curiosity and above all, faith.
[00:03:06] Speaker C: So, Shabita, let's talk about the exciting journey that you've been on with your workshops. I think that would be a good starting point. We've talked so much about identity and what that is.
[00:03:21] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. So the workshop started initially as just conversation. And what would happen is a lot of people would keep calling randomly for advice and counseling, because unless you get to the root of where the problem is arising from, you're trying to solve one issue or the other, it could be a good starting point to start talking about something, an entry point, so as to say, I just thought that giving a few tools and techniques, which I just wanted to pass it on to those who would find it useful so they can kind of develop their own insights from that. Yeah, it's from all over the place. It's like lot of tools. I have experimented with tools that I've picked up from here and there and a bit from the psychology background that I was introduced to in college. So it's like a combination, but a very practical tool, you can say, for beginners who are just entering into this whole realm, where everything seems very solid from that reality. It's just to kind of understand even the teachings of the masters. Right. Because otherwise a lot of it is just going over your head and you have no clue what they're talking about. So Ramesh Babu simplified it a lot for me. I've just kind of made it a lot more into smaller, practical things.
[00:04:43] Speaker C: So, Shabita, when you talked about the realm, when you talk about sort of beginners entering into the realm, can you explain that a little bit more? What you mean by that?
[00:04:53] Speaker D: It's like what Ramesh Babu says, seeing things clearly, to just look at it a little more deeply and understanding it, or perceiving it, is it really that to just question it, to question it very objectively and to start seeing very clearly? And I think as you talk to Ramesh Babu, that'll make it a lot more clearer.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: So, Ramesh, since Shobita has cited your work and your journey influential in her process, could you share with us a little bit about two pieces that I'm interested in? One is what would you say is sort of the central thesis of the work, and two, how did you arrive at it?
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Firstly, thanks for having me on this dialogue. I think it's great to share views with someone who's passionate about this. I would say the transformation space, mainly the personal transformation space, it's very valuable. There's a sense of urgency these days around getting that going. My personal journey started when I was in my early 20s. That's when I would call myself a seeker, though I did not know what the word meant. So the usual, a lot of confusion in the mind and lack of purpose, lack of meaning. Well, I think the good part of that was I did not have any background into areas like psychology and even things like state and behavior and how the brain works and what's the subconscious mind or what's the conscious mind, how we create our realities. So I had zero, zilch background into all of these topics that you would normally expect seekers to be involved.
[00:06:46] Speaker C: Ramesh, you're saying that you found that to be a benefit?
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Yes, because everything that I was learning was new, I guess, with my.
Naturally, I've been a curious learner from my early days at school. A bit of a rebel, very playful, always like to try things for myself rather than hear someone else's version of what that experience is like.
So those skills helped me a lot. And whenever I was in a situation, the spidey sense used to turn on, and I would know whether to step aside or to engage or who to talk to in a crowded room, so on. So I had, I guess, some of those instincts.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Could you describe the quality of it that compelled you to start asking these questions?
Was there some event or was it just sort of a generalized, sort of an existential angst or a meaninglessness? Or was there some precipitating event that led to this inquiry?
[00:08:11] Speaker A: That's a great question. Actually, it's all of the above that you mentioned.
Sometimes it hits you one by one, sometimes it hits you altogether.
That's when you feel overwhelmed, you feel helpless, you feel that it's a sense that you have lost yourself along the way or forget about. Maybe a little more. Stronger word might be you don't even know yourself. So you should have known yourself to be able to lose yourself somewhere. But since I was in my early 20s, other than being a studious lad at school and getting good grades and introspect or learn more about myself, so I was at that stage where I did not know what I want and I was not happy with what I had, and I did not know whose advice to take.
I did not know which road to travel because I did not know which destination was worth reaching.
Right.
But I knew that deep inside, I had to figure it out for myself. And it so happened that I was working overseas, so not in India at that time. So it was a southeast asian country.
I don't like using the word guru, and neither would the person. Like was. He was a friend, philosopher, guide.
So he had been through a lot of this on his own. So he was a master's in philosophy and psychology. He had dabbled a lot in asian and western philosophy schools of thought, and he was working in the same office that I was. So we used to have numerous conversations, and that was my first interaction with any philosopher ever.
And when you are in that very vulnerable state yourself, every question that someone asks you hits home, right? So it gives you sleepless nights because you feel that the guide in this case has helped you articulate what's troubling you.
So they give some form and structure and shape to the questions that bother us. That was a godsend, literally. So otherwise, I would have probably been meandering, lost, without any sense of direction on how to start, where to start.
What do you even read? What do you want to know? What do you want to learn? Somebody says, learn science, and all your questions would be answered. Then I would have learned science, but no one was telling me, nor did I know the right questions to ask. So that's when, typically, I think, one starts to get that tap on the shoulder, and that's, like an entry point. I hope that helps.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: I'm so curious and fascinated by the idea of the teachers showing up when we need them, being held by the universe in a positive way.
I was just reading a book, actually, yesterday. It's called the Holy ideas, and it's an extension of the enneagram. And looking at it from this perspective of rather than a psychological framework, looking at it from these essential values framework. And one of the main points that they emphasize is that to really enter into spiritual work and spiritual transformation, that we need to have what's called basic trust. And the basic trust idea is that we believe that the universe is going to provide for us. We believe that the universe is benevolent and has our back. And when you were speaking, Ramesh, that's what was coming up for me was this, again, further proof that when we need support, the universe provides for us. Right? Like, you just find this teacher that you needed to help guide you in this journey and thinking about how critical that is to have that support and to have that one. The belief that we're going to get what we need when we really genuinely integrate that, that we do, in fact get what we need.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: I can completely relate based on my experience, and I think really great teachers compared to good teachers. But I think what separates the great ones is they just point the way to you and they do not tell you exactly what you will find at the end of that way.
And great teachers have faith in their students as well.
So they believe that their seeking is genuine, and it's coming from a place of sincerity and a deep desire to know for sure.
And I think teachers respond to that with a lot of, I would say compassion, because it's not about opening someone's head and pouring a lot of knowledge, whether it's spiritual knowledge or whether it is what you would call wisdom or teachings or guidance.
The compassion comes first, and the faith follows from both sides. So at some stage, your journey becomes one.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: And I'm curious, because of you saying that a great teacher points you in the direction. Can you share a little bit about the direction that your teacher pointed you? And the reason why I'm focusing on your journey first is because I know that it had such a major impact on Shavita. And so I feel like getting that foundation down is important. So if you would be willing to share a bit about what direction your.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: Teacher pointed you in, they were on very simple topics. So, for example, a question like, how would I know that a goal is worthwhile? He'd probably respond with something like, why don't you ask the tree?
So in a sense, pointing to the human being's nature of obsession with concepts like goals, purpose and meaning and so on, whereas we do not see too many manifestations of that in the natural world.
But he never explained it, so his questions would always be more provocative, forcing me to ask those questions in a way that will help me find answers within myself. Having explored many paths up and down the mountain, figuratively, I would say that the path he pointed me to was the path of the mind, which was to deeply understand the nature of thoughts, the nature of our mental experiences.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: And what have you gleaned from that, now that it's some 20 years plus later?
So what have you gleaned about the mind? What have you gleaned about both inhabiting our mind and also extracting ourselves from our mind, which I think is a lot of what Shobita's been working with and myself as well?
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Oh, I'm sure your experiences and the scope of what both of you are undertaking is really vast and wide. So I just stuck to the one thing that led me all the way till the end.
So think of it as a rope that I used to climb the mountain, and there are many ropes hanging down the side of the mountain.
[00:17:08] Speaker D: Fascinating.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Yes. So I just chose this rope.
It was more direct because you can jump through the stages of so called progression quite rapidly, but it leaves you questioning your sanity, and so it's not for everyone.
[00:17:29] Speaker C: I would say in that journey that when you bring that up, like, you start questioning your sanity, was there a moment that you particularly remember that was so disorienting for you that it became either hard to integrate or you just didn't integrate it because you were like, I can let this go.
Would you be willing to share a little bit more about that experience of that sort of. Am I going insane?
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, we could take a simple example. So, this was something that we discussed over a pint of beer, actually.
So we were having a picnic, just sitting in the lawns and near the mountains. So this was almost a half day spent going insane just trying to figure out what exactly is the sky.
[00:18:29] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. Wow.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: This was to educate me that there are always multiple points of view or opinions, experiences and knowledge, but none of these are the complete truth.
And it was also educated to me that there is no such thing, like saying, these are my truths, and you have your truth, so truth has to be one.
So you can call it different names, but you can't say, this is my truth and that's your truth.
Then we are going back to just different points of view and different belief systems.
So if you were to take the sky, I mean, it appears blue to you. It appears blue to me. It appears blue to every human being on earth. But that does not mean it's true.
Even if ants and birds and fishes see a blue sky, it still doesn't make it true, because when you dig deeper and then you learn about it, the sky has no color of its own.
It is colorless.
And similarly, the grass has no greenness. The sky has no blueness of its own, and the apple has no redness of its own. The sun is not yellow on its own.
So where are these colors coming from?
And this is where, when you ask a question like that, then the mind quickly responds, because it's the master and you're the slave. So the mind would say something like, hey, it's just light, right? Maybe it's not in the object, but it's blue because it's the color of the light. Come in. Don't worry about that.
But then you dig deeper. Because there is no color per Se. When you say it's blue light or red light is light, there is no blueness or redness and light itself. And then the mind would say, oh, it's some technical thing. It's called wavelength. Some frequencies, but you dig deeper, and then you say, right, so it's maybe 400 terahertz to 480 terahertz hits our eyes, and we see a red sunset. Now, 500 to 540 terahertz hit our eyes. We see a yellow sunset, right? So there is no redness in 400 terahertz. It's just a wavelength. It's just a frequency.
So what gave it the yellowness and the redness?
So then it all comes back to the mind itself, which is trying to give the answers that the mind is making up colors for each of these. So he jokingly said that it's a pigment of your imagination.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: I love that imagination. That's brilliant.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: It's a story being created in the mind every moment. And that's when we make it real, right? Because we keep believing the stories that the mind tells us every day. And once we accept that story and start to live that story as if it is the truth, then that's when we get into what we call the conditioned mind. Because the mind cannot accept anything else, because it has tricked you into accepting it as if it is the truth and as if it is real.
[00:22:08] Speaker C: The question that came up for me in that was, do you think that this is something that is a unique condition of our modern experience, other cultures, indigenous cultures or paleolithic cultures or that different eras, different times, had access to something beyond just these mental projections.
I'm always curious about that.
If our modernization has limited our ability to have access to these other realities, not even other realities, but perhaps, as you were saying, not other truths, but the truth. And I'm just very fascinated with the idea of, is this something that we've gotten away from and is inherent in our human nature, that we take away these layers, these veils, and suddenly we can go back to that more natural state of authentic seeing?
[00:23:17] Speaker A: It's always been that way, that you start with a conditioning. But then when you are living with that conditioning, you reach a point where the reality that you are believing in is so suffocating, it's so nonsensical, that you just have to stop and say, enough. I need to start from basics. So I think a lot of cultures have done that.
I don't know about whether it's a function of the modern age that creates this separation. I think humans at all points of times have experienced delusion one way or another.
There were times of intense war and conflict and survival was the key. So I'm sure our ancestors must have been in the grip of fear and anxiety and that has somehow created these evolutionary responses in our brains that we were born with.
I think each of us is like a story, is part of that universal story. It's just that we are in the current moment right now.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: The reverse of that question then do you think that we're shifting more into a place of stripping away these layers of conditioning? Because I think we're looking around and seeing so much absurdity and things that don't make sense and people living in ways that aren't bringing them awakening deep joy within.
People are feeling increasingly disconnected and lonely and depressed and anxious. And so I'm wondering, you have a sense of perhaps in fact our culture or our whole evolution as human beings is moving in a direction of more awakening to this truer reality.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: To be honest, I would say. I would like to believe that's true. But let me put it in a slightly different way. I think the opportunity today for awakening is much more easier and accessible than say 4000, 5000 years ago. I mean, let's take the example of India, right? So in India if you were born like 5000, 6000 years ago, you had to travel thousands of miles just to find someone who can talk to about this stuff.
Now, today you can just Google search and then find out some answers to know for sure what something is. The earliest transmissions, at least in our indigenous cultures in India, it was called a transmission. So you had to be ready for a connection to form so that the insight could reach, right? So there was that requirement for whoever came for this sort of dialogue to be completely present in that encounter, for anything valuable to be transmitted.
[00:26:39] Speaker C: When I was just talking about this idea of basic trust, the book is called Facets of unity, the enneagram of holy ideas. And this author was also saying exactly what you just said, that you can have all of the tools available to you. For example, you can have the knowledge of the enneagram, how it functions, all of the aspects of it, but there needs to be a readiness. And if you don't have the basic trust in a benevolent, supportive universe, you won't even be open to be receptive to the ideas, to be open to that transmission as you talk about.
And this might be a good point to transition into Shobita's work because I know that over the many conversations that Shobita and I have had over the years that we've often talked about readiness for transmission. And in my own journey, as Shabita knows quite well, that I feel like I've stopped and started. I've retracted. I've opened. It's just been this incredible journey of not just fully being open, but feeling like, oh, I'm open. I've got this, I'm ready to receive this. And then all of a sudden, I shut down again, wanting to stay in this state of openness so that I am in the flow and I can receive the gifts of the universe. And when Shabita was telling you about the work that she was doing, I was so excited about it, because I think that you're providing Shabita a space for people to come in, all of that readiness, retraction, readiness, retraction. And to hold a safe space to be able to explore not only these ideas intellectually, but being able to approach them from whatever position someone is at a given moment. Does that make sense? Does that resonate with the people that are in your group?
[00:28:59] Speaker D: Shabita yeah, I think it's things that you can say that will work for everyone at every point of time.
So a little bit of like a little dance you have to do where you have to guess what the step is, the right step in that moment. So it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of adventure also. But we are constantly kind of adjusting with what is needed because you don't want to put in more ideas, more constructs, more beliefs into someone and more knowledge, which is going to hinder. But at the same time, you just want to be able to loosen a little bit of the tight bonds that have formed. So it's like a balancing act between the two. It is very individualistic in that sense. So each person who is journeying, that's why it's a very small cohort. It is very word of mouth. It's people who are kind of, like, looking for that kind of an exploration. So it's like a bunch of people exploring together, to put it simply, right? And they speak common topics, and somebody might share something that I learned from, and I share something. And it just kind of helps us see a little more clearly in the sense of a simple example, like we possibly discuss, okay, if everyone went to a restaurant and had a meal, does everyone experience a meal in the same way? Right. And just sitting with that question, and when people come back and then they share about what that meant to them or how something shifted that day when they kind of started realizing that it's their own experience of it and not really the meal per se, that brings about a little bit of shift in the way they're looking at things.
So it is just a very brief introduction because it's just like putting in a few seeds which will germinate the way it germinates depending on how ready their soil is. And it's more like just something that you've already experienced, but you're just hearing it articulated in a particular way. So it helps you move a little bit faster than otherwise, or at least start understanding that, okay, maybe there are a few things that I could read up or look up or find out more about.
So, yeah, that's a bit about how we approach it.
[00:31:32] Speaker C: So, I know from the conversations that you and I had while I was in India that one of the central theses that we were talking about was this idea of looking at identity as the thing that is getting in the way, identity as an obstacle. And could you talk a little bit about if that still remains true for you now that you've done this work with several cohorts?
One and two, does that still remain true for you? And two, could you talk a little bit about how you begin to have that conversation, how you open up people to this idea and what their initial maybe reaction might be to that?
[00:32:27] Speaker D: Yeah. So we begin with just an introduction of who we are.
Then we really start analyzing whether that really is you still learning and figuring out things. But the moment we kind of sit and analyze whether this is really you, whether you look at your body, and when you look at your body, you start realizing is just a mass of ever changing substances, like, the air is coming, and air is going out, food is coming, and food is going out.
Every component of your body seems to be constantly changing. Your cells are dying, new cells are being formed, and you can't really seem to put a boundary to it and say, okay, this is where I end, and this is where the world outside of me starts, because there's a constant interaction, it seems to be actually boundary less thing to which we have put a boundary of some sort. Right. And then if you look at the name and you start realizing that, okay, if you're called by some other name, you'd still remain you.
[00:33:31] Speaker C: So are you saying that these identities that we have are sort of, like, falsely constructed?
[00:33:42] Speaker D: I mean, I like the term Ramesh Baba uses for this as maps. Or in other words, like, the other word that people use is roles, right? There are different roles. You play roles and to realize that you are not that role, really. Right? And then if you're not the role, who are you? So that becomes the question that each one of us has to really explore.
[00:34:05] Speaker C: It's so fascinating to me because I think that I'm thinking of several people in my life, and their sense of the strength of their sense of identity is often the thing that quells their anxiety, quells their depression.
And it's such an interesting thing because it's so paradoxical that the more we attach to these, there's sort of like a sweet spot or something. I don't quite have this figured out, but we have a sense of identity. Okay, I'm a mother, right? So as a mother, I can rest in that. In a sense, like, I know who I am as a mother, and therefore, I have a whole sense of roles that, as you said, roles that come with that. And knowing what those roles are might make me not feel as anxious, right? Because if I know the role, then I have, as Ramesh was saying, this sort of prescribed conditioning of, well, if I'm a mom, I know that I need to be doing these particular things, but it seems like somehow these identities that we have are becoming in prisons for us, for many people, and are becoming the very thing that's causing anxiety or that's causing our separation from others. And it just seems so paradoxical to me. And I wonder if you've grappled with that, in fact. Well, I know that you've grappled with it, but if you could share a little bit about how that maybe is manifesting in the folks that you're facilitating the workshops for.
[00:35:57] Speaker D: Yeah, we don't push them into the deep end here in this, because I'm not in touch with those people and I don't even understand completely, like, their readiness or their situation at that point, conversations, we don't really push them into the deep end of.
[00:36:14] Speaker C: Oh, wait, Sobita. You don't push them into the deep end, but you push me into the deep end? Is that what you're saying?
[00:36:24] Speaker D: But the whole point is, it's very scary for most people to know that they have no ground to stand on. It's petrifying, right? So unless someone is really ready for that and it can even take you verge of insanity, as Ramesh Bhagu was talking about, you really start really everything, and at some point you feel like you're losing your sense of reality, so to speak. Because there was a point when I thought, when I started wondering whether I'm becoming a schizophrenic. Because it can kind of shake your entire ground of what you thought.
[00:37:05] Speaker C: And in a way, isn't that the point? I mean, that's sort of the idea, and that's what I'm sort of trying to get at with this paradox, is that I think that's the very point, is to shake off, to shake loose those identities and have that knowing that by shaking off those identities that are temporal, I think that's the thing. Those identities are temporal. And by shaking off those identities, it allows us an openness and expansiveness to be able to acknowledge and embrace and open ourselves in a free flowing way to the absolute ground of reality and the ever presence of the universe and of this energy that exists that will be there forever that we are a part of and that our conditioning has somehow separated us from. And that transition point that you're talking about is. So it is existential dread. Right. And also, interestingly enough, I just want to add this for both of you and also for our listeners. I'm a huge fan of Ernest Becker, who wrote the denial of death in 1973, and someone has made a documentary of him, and it's coming out, I think, this week.
And he was one of the first, sort of academic thinkers to start doing exactly what both of you are talking about was all of this conditioning and all of this identity masking that we put on. The real underlying reason that we do all of that is a fundamental fear of death and a denial of the fact of our mortality. And so maybe this is a good opportunity to return to Ramesh because you talked about how along this journey of climbing this rope that there was a sense of, am I going insane in this process? And I'm wondering how you were able to maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm just going to frame it very loosely. And please correct me in a way that makes sense for your own experience that.
Do you remember the quality of that shift from I feel like I'm going insane to, okay, there's an awareness that is coming that, though very painful to arrive at it, it allowed you to see or experience a deeper truth.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, like you mentioned a while ago, you have to have faith.
[00:40:05] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: And it's the faith that delivers you out of that insanity, because what's really happening, it's easy for me to say now that I can look back at it with a lot more, I guess, sagacious wisdom.
What's actually happening is just the conditioning that's being shaken up.
It's not the reality. The reality is what it is, and it's been around for billions of years. You don't have to worry about reality getting shaken up. So it survived billions of years. It'll survive another billion more. We are not really too concerned about what's happening to reality.
But we are affected when our own conditionings get shaken up. And these conditionings affect us when they are loosened or weakened.
To the same extent or intensity with which we are attached to them.
[00:41:06] Speaker C: So can I ground that in a specific example? So, like, maybe death of a child or a divorce or a loss of a job?
[00:41:13] Speaker A: Oh, yes, sure.
Okay. Yeah. I can give two examples.
One, the loss of my brother, who was like a year elder to me. But, yeah, he passed on a few years ago. For all my practice with mindfulness and presence and so on. I found myself uncontrollably in tears right when that happened, though, I have never really shed a single tear for the death of any other person in my family. And as you can imagine, when you're 30 years old, you have seen many people pass on, right? Relatives, grandparents, and so on.
But it's that presence that makes you very intensely aware, even in that intense emotion, what's happening. And then you realize that it's affecting you because of the. It is revealing to you how tightly you had held on to that.
And so the release or the outburst is that much more intense only because of the intensity of the attachment you had all along. And most of us aren't even consciously aware of the level to which we are attached to people or things, right? It could be an object. It could be that guitar that your dad gave you when you were six.
Or the first bicycle you rode on. Or the home that you grew up in.
Or it could be a job position, a title.
[00:42:56] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Right? I mean, anything, right? It doesn't matter. See, that's the beauty of it. The content doesn't matter.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: Right?
[00:43:05] Speaker A: It is the intensity with which you make it yours and attach yourself to it. That determines how much of a shake up you're going to face when it is being physically removed or dislocated or relocated or challenged.
That's been my experience. And the second experience is when a child leaves home, or a son leaves home to another country to study, or they're leaving home to go and join college again. You feel those same intense emotions, even though you joke about it and say, thank God, you're out of here.
But the intensity comes from the fact that you are attached to that relationship, to that person since literally he was born.
So all of that emotional energy has to get just pent up. It was in the subconscious, and now it's coming out consciously. So once we are aware that it's the conditioning that's being shaken and the intensity of the insanities or the fear is really about what you have invested in, attached to, that's getting weakened, loosened, then you can retain your balance for future events, even if they are traumatic personally to you or to me or anyone else.
That's been my learning from two strong.
[00:44:43] Speaker C: Things came to mind as you were sharing, and thank you for sharing both of those examples.
The first one I'll just share was when my daughter left for college. And Shabita and I have talked about this extensively, that I just was not ready for it.
The emotional devastation that came from that, it was just heartbreaking to a level that I didn't even think I was capable of, quite frankly.
So I completely identify with that. And it was an utter dismantling of not only this feeling of losing this attachment that I had, of seeing my daughter on a daily basis, but really that questioning of, well, if she's gone and I'm not parenting in the same way anymore, am I still a mother? Because I've attached to that identity? And it was exactly this idea of the roles. What does it mean to be a mother? Well, a mother means that I do these particular things on a daily basis, like we have breakfast together or whatever it is that we're doing. And if I lose those roles that I'm playing for her, am I still a mother? And so for me, the grief was so complicated because obviously I missed the conversations and just being in her presence on a daily basis. But also the grief was a loss of the illusion of the role that I had attached to what it meant to be a mother. And I think that that's a big transition for a lot of people. That was the first thought that I wanted to share, and the second thought was, I was having a conversation with someone the other day who's going through a difficult time.
And I found myself sort of reiterating that I just have this faith in the universe, and if you just loosen the reins a little bit, I think you're going to be okay. And it was very interesting because the person's responses over the past probably, I would say it's been a good two years of a great deal of upheaval in my own personal many, many transitions, losses, shifts, massive shifts, like living in India, moving back to the United States, moving from New York to California, back again, switching jobs three, four times, having my daughter leaving for college, my son graduating from high school. There's a lot. I'm at a very big transition point, and this friend of mine was saying, are you really as happy as you seem like you are? Because I look at all the things going on, and you seem really grounded, and you seem really happy. And I'm wondering if that's really true, if you're bullshitting me.
And I didn't really have the words to explain it, but I think when I read the facets of unity the other day and it was talking about this basic trust, I think there was a moment of, wait a minute. Maybe that is where it's coming from. Because it feels like whatever circumstances are happening externally, it's not that I don't get moved by them. I do get moved by them, sort of like a ship on the ocean. But I feel anchored enough in this deeper knowing, this deeper sense of being held.
The question that arose when I said, no, I genuinely feel safe and held. And it doesn't mean that I don't have emotional reactions to things, but generally, I feel safe and held. And this person responded with such a beautiful and poignant question was, what if I just don't feel that? How do I begin? And I'm curious how either of you might respond to that question for this friend who is asking, from a very genuine, heartfelt, authentic longing place.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: True. And maybe I can give it a try, and Shobhi can add, it depends on the question that we ask ourselves through all these changes you spoke about, were you the same self, or were you different self for me?
[00:49:18] Speaker C: Same self.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Yes. And I think that's the beauty of it, and that's the simplicity of it, too. The fact that you're not just a mother, you're also a daughter to someone.
[00:49:32] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: And how is it possible for you to be two different selves? So the role doesn't define you, right?
[00:49:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:49:42] Speaker A: That same you that you call yourself could be 100% genuine and sincere while playing the role of a doctor, just as you would be 100% sincere in playing the role of a mother. And so realizing that the roles we play don't define us, and through all the life changes, we remain. And to experience that self directly is what I meant by being fully present.
So when you're fully present, you can say hello to your dad and turn around and say, hi, honey, to your daughter. And you'd be fully present in both situations, both conversations.
[00:50:30] Speaker C: Yes. I wonder how you might respond to my friend, who really feels, in a way, a profound disconnect from this feeling.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Of basic trust, well, he or she has to trust themselves.
They don't need to trust anyone else and just know that they are here because they deserve to be here.
[00:50:53] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: And nothing can take that away from them.
And the fact that they just have to be genuine to themselves. And the best way to do that is to be in touch with the most genuine, uncorrupted, and raw form of ourself, which is just the word I.
And so the longer we stay in touch with our own inner self, then the closer we come to being loved and accepted, because the self accepts and loves us as well. So that shines outward.
Just as it shines inward, it shines outward.
You cannot love someone else if you do not love yourself. I know it sounds cliche, but that's really true.
[00:51:49] Speaker C: It's fundamentally true.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: I have met people, close friends, who say, I'm a good father, but I'm a horrible son.
And they chose to judge themselves based on their worst avatars or rules, and they forget that what has created both of them comes from a very pure place.
And so I think just looking inward, connecting with that part which is pure, which is love itself, that's really the core of your being, and that will shine both within and outside.
And it's not that I'm asking anyone to trust what I'm saying. I'm inviting them to experience it for themselves.
[00:52:48] Speaker C: And I felt that in my conversation the other day with my friend that I said almost exactly the same thing, that I don't want you to put your stock in me around this. You need to experience this for yourself, because that's how I arrived at it, was through my own experiencing, of seeing that underlying presence in reality. And because of that, whatever's happening in the surface of my life, I do still feel a core of that being held by the universe. But I think I felt in the moment when I was with this friend, I was like, oh, my gosh.
I'm not sure what I can say or even where to point this person.
As you said, the person who became your guide on your journey, Ramesh, was like, go ask a tree. Right?
I just found myself in this space of wanting to know, because I think probably, perhaps many people who might listen to this will also think to themselves.
I'm not sure that I also have that sense of a basic trust in the benevolence of the universe. And so do we have any ideas or suggestions or thoughts about an initial step that might be helpful for people who know that what they're doing isn't working. They're feeling anxious or depressed or over identifying with these conditioned identities.
In your work with others, has there been something that you've been able to, a particular space that you've been able to open up a particular sort of questioning or even just a being within a presence that has allowed them to be able to consider that as even a possibility?
[00:54:55] Speaker A: From my perspective, the only thing I want to say is it's important for the person who's there to just be there listening and being there with that person who needs help. And I think that's the number one most important gift you can give yourself and to the other person.
[00:55:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: And it starts from there. And people who have a deeper insight will realize that this person is me and I am this person.
[00:55:28] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:55:29] Speaker A: As Christ said, love thy neighbor. A deeper insight would reveal to you.
[00:55:36] Speaker D: You are your neighbor, shobita, while interacting with so many people. And this having faith in oneself does come up and being loving to oneself. But people who are in a lot of suffering and lot of anguish, the first thing they say is, how do I do that? The idea that they are judging themselves or listen to how you talk to yourself and equate it to, how would you talk to someone in the same situation if they were a stranger?
For example, if I am in a whole space of hating myself, loathing myself, judging myself very strongly, and I kind of drop something on the floor, it gets into maybe a 15 minutes negative rant about how useless I am, how I can't get one thing right, how I can't just handle a cup of tea and what a mess I've made and get into that spiral, right? Instead of just saying, yeah, I have to mop this up. Right.
[00:56:43] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:56:43] Speaker D: Now, the same thing. If you just extend it to how would you have reacted if your friend had just dropped this? And most probably Tudor said, hey, let's just clean it up, it's fine. Or someone important who's come to your house drops it all the more, you'd be like, this is quite manageable, don't worry about this.
[00:57:03] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:57:05] Speaker D: And the moment they start shifting that talk in a way that is more.
[00:57:11] Speaker C: Conducive to their own welfare and compassion toward themselves.
[00:57:18] Speaker D: Absolutely.
And as Ramesh Babu rightly said, you're not capable of loving anyone else unless you can love yourself. And this is something that people have to really start observing in their own know, because you go home today and then you start observing that when you're in judgment at yourself. How are you reacting to the next person who's sitting, who's talking to you or something? And most probably it will either be anger or there's some other emotion that's coming out and not really a genuine understanding. And the other thing, another way of looking at it is if you had a very toxic roommate who's constantly nagging you about how hopeless you are, wouldn't you want to run away from the space? When we start realizing that we are that most toxic residential roommate, constantly just making life hell. And that's why we want to constantly change. We want to change jobs, we want to change geographical spaces, we want to change friends, we want to change relationships, we want to change partners, but we can't get away from it because wherever we go, we are taking ourself and our self talk and the way we are with our own being everywhere. Right? So you can't escape that. So unless the change happens there, it's not going to really work. And talking about faith, the simple fact that we take these useless pieces of paper and we call it money and we trust each other and we exchange goodies based on that, shows that the whole world is working on faith right now.
[00:59:08] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.
[00:59:12] Speaker D: Right there. You're giving out a note that proves that everyone is trusting everyone and everyone is having faith in something.
[00:59:22] Speaker C: I still love this idea of the roommate. What a brilliant analogy. I think that would be extremely helpful for a lot of people. That is so brilliant, shabita, really brilliant.
[00:59:35] Speaker D: One thing that we sit and examine in their own lives is to see is there any identity that they hold so closely? Has it been unchanging?
And is there any identity that they can claim which is not dependent on something outside of something external? For example, I can say, this is my.
You can't pinpoint and say, okay, this is me. And like, for example, when you say my body, there is an eye who is claiming this body, and this body seems to be external to this eye.
There is someone who can claim that this is my body, right?
And the body is an ever changing mass of food, air, water, space, and whatever. So when you really start examining and seeing that you can't pinpoint to anything that is not contextual, that is not independent, and that remains unchanging except for the sense of eye, which seems to be the only constant.
[01:00:37] Speaker C: And for this deeper spiritual transformation to happen, do you both believe that also that eye has to go? And so how do we find the balance between those? And what does that practically look like?
[01:00:55] Speaker A: I guess it's not about believing in something. I'd rather we be original and honest with ourselves as we seek. I think that's a more important quality than belief in someone's teachings.
Some quotation that someone said long ago you would be seen clearly. So that's really what the whole process is about. It's not about believing. Yeah. So it's about trying to see yourself honestly without having to believe in what somebody says you will find.
And so it is just to stay with that question in your innermost being as you go through life, as you find quiet moments in solitude, it is that question that is there in the innermost core of your being that I need to see myself clearly.
When you do not focus on your self image, but you just focus on seeing yourself clearly, then the other hindrances will settle on their own. They'll drop off.
So what do I mean by that? Because we know we are a teacher. We know we are a mother, we know we are a father.
That's the known. That's the identity. Identity is what you know.
That's the only thing that's being shed. So the real you will continue. And so when you spoke about, how do I function in this world without an identity of, say, a teacher?
My response to that will be, yes, you will lose your identity of a teacher, but you will be fully present as a teacher.
[01:02:52] Speaker C: By dropping the role of teacher, you actually become embodied as a teacher.
[01:02:58] Speaker A: Right. And when you're fully present, you are the music that you are playing.
[01:03:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: So you do not let your identity come between you and the music.
[01:03:08] Speaker C: It's been through moments of poetry that I've experienced that the most, that something just literally moves through me. And even after the fact, I read it, and I have no idea where it came from.
It's me, but it's very much not me. I know that I've struggled with that duality after several poems that I've written and looking at wonder, where did this come from? I just want to invite either of you, to both of you, to reflect on anything that came up for you during our conversation.
[01:03:48] Speaker A: Then we start to be more authentic, more spontaneous, and more genuine and more honest with ourselves. And you can become a better version of yourself, a different version of yourself. I think that's the thought I'd like to leave you with.
[01:04:06] Speaker C: It's been an honor to share this time with you, and I'm extremely grateful. Thank you so much, Ramesh. I appreciate it.
[01:04:14] Speaker D: I just thought that it's a beautiful thought, that there really is nothing to know and to just stay with that. Thank you.
[01:04:22] Speaker C: Thank you.
