Agnostic Explorations of The Miracle of Consciousness and Hope: A Discussion With Sam Zito

Show Notes

After a Sunday Brunch at Lisa Carley's friend Joel Lesses' house, on his Two Schmoes Sanctuary patio, Lisa and Sam had an ongoing conversation into the afternoon and evening where a suggestion was made to throw down a phone and record the discussion.

Topics of this conversation include travel (i.e., Ireland and India), philosophy, humanity's limitations and failures, and the desire to seek a 'hive-mind' for all people, constructively benefiting all members of our society and community.

Lisa and Sam explore how to dissect the makeup of human life and what drives this dialogue, this exploration.

Shifting to morals and ethics, are they relevant in our World, in our Life?

If so, 'How?!,' 'Why?!'

A framework of understanding brought the notion that 'We only know the answers to the questions we are asking,' so the question becomes, 'are we asking the right questions?'

What is the nature of 'Consciousness?'
What about 'Free Will?'
What is it to examine or look at our consciousness?

Sam feels that while drawn to the mystical, he also holds himself back from it, because the mystical can be taken too far.

All Scientist began as philosophers.

All Physical Science began out of Philosophy.

Is openness or an open mind a sign of brillance.

Is there always a causal relationship in human behavior, a reason for it?

Discussion turned to the book Sapiens, and the documentary Unknown: The Cave of Bones.

'There are some questions we will never know the answers to.'

The phone recording ended without Sam or Lisa knowing it and Agnostic Explorations of The Miracle of Consciousness and Hope winds down an evening of conversation special and sanctified.

Biography:

Sam Zito is a serious student of philosophy and life, although he describes himself as just beginning the journey into it. Sam lives in Buffalo, New York and has had a range of life experience. He currently studies at Arizona State University, Philosophy, plays chess, has two daughters, and ponders often life's mysteries and wonders.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I had more caffeine right now. [00:00:01] Speaker B: You'd be like, I'm already there, though. What's that? [00:00:04] Speaker A: I'm already, like. I'm just starting to, like, finally be more calm. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:09] Speaker A: I don't know if you ever. If you. If you experience that, like, where it's like you have too much coffee, and though there are thoughts in your mind, like, converting them into speech is just not an option. Everything is, like, stifled, almost like, oh, there. There's that. There's that. But it's like you don't know what to say, so you say nothing at all. [00:00:27] Speaker B: I don't have much of a reaction to caffeine, actually, which is good. [00:00:30] Speaker A: I'm glad that you said so. I remember when I was first introduced to caffeine coffee, obviously. A friend of mine, Frankie, we had stayed up all night. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Wait, now, as an Italian, you didn't have it as a kid? [00:00:42] Speaker A: No, I never saw my nana. Obviously, there was, like, people having coffee. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah. That was a huge thing growing up. Yeah, yeah. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Never thought it was good, though. [00:00:50] Speaker B: And it was always, like, mostly milk with, like, a little bit of. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:00:53] Speaker A: I never liked it, though. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, I didn't know that there. It was like a drug that had an effect. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. Like, I was maybe 23 or something. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Oh. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Which is. That's kind of a lie. I had monster energy drinks. Okay, so it was like that, but I didn't know why I liked them, because my brain wasn't just putting it together. It was like, yo, there's caffeine in this. You like that? It's a stimulant. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:18] Speaker A: But, um, I remember, like, frankie was like, have you. You don't drink coffee? And I'm like, no. And we stayed up all night. We were gonna go to Barnes and noble, and he gave me a cup of coffee, and it was like I had slept. Like, I was like, I can go. It was like, dude, I slept 8 hours. Let's go. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:36] Speaker A: And ever since then, I, like, really enjoyed it to the point where back then, at least for a while, I had developed this. It was like, I could have three pots, coffee, nothing, and then fine. Yeah, yeah. But then I quit. I stopped. I stopped. [00:01:50] Speaker B: You didn't get headaches and withdraw from. [00:01:51] Speaker A: No, like, that's. People say that, but that's a nicotine. Absolutely. Caffeine. No. If anything, like, I feel better. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, I'm calm and nice, but what happened? I quit. And then maybe, like, a couple months later, I went back to it, and ever since, I'm extraordinary. Like, I can have one cup of coffee, and I'm like, it's not. It's like. It's so bad. It's like anxiety now. It's like, oh, my God, like, what's going. Like, all the bad stuff. So. But it's still. I don't know. It still does something to me, which is odd, because I've been drinking it quite steadily now for. I think I started drinking it again in 2021 and it still has the effect on me. Yeah. I don't know. [00:02:35] Speaker B: It's not building up somehow. [00:02:37] Speaker A: No, there's nothing. It's. Every day it's like, no, you're gonna have this cup of coffee and you're going to feel wild for a couple hours. Here we go. As long as I've realized hydrated, you have to mean, as long as you hydrate, you're good. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. What was that look for? [00:03:00] Speaker A: You didn't just hear that? [00:03:01] Speaker B: Oh, was it my chair? [00:03:02] Speaker A: It may have been, yeah. I'm gonna move over. I thought it was like a fly or something. [00:03:11] Speaker B: No, it's just my chair. [00:03:13] Speaker A: It's nice here. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it's good, huh? All right, sure? Yeah. [00:03:18] Speaker A: You want to try it? [00:03:19] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Thanks. [00:03:20] Speaker A: You just put it in your lip. It settles it down. You don't need any. You're not supposed to swallow it. I do. I think this is his yogi chair. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah. Exactly. [00:03:36] Speaker A: What questions do you have? Right? [00:03:37] Speaker B: What questions do you have? [00:03:38] Speaker A: Have you ever met any? Like, obviously you've been to India, so that's like, you've seen and talk to with people that are, like, involved in these traditions. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Well, interestingly enough, like, when I go to India, it isn't really like we often have that stereotype, right? Of, like, Americans going to India for, like, some spiritual awakening and something like that. [00:04:00] Speaker A: I took your seat. I'm sorry. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Hey, Joel, did I leave my coffee in the. I think I might have left my coffee. [00:04:08] Speaker A: I just brought that out. Salmon one? Yeah, that's yours. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, but I do my. Can you bring out my cream? The creamer? [00:04:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Thanks. No, no, just that that creamer has sugar in it, so that's perfect. Yeah. So I didn't. I don't go there for that reason. [00:04:27] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I have always had a deep love of indian culture. I mean, for a very, very long time. So it started when I. Thanks, Joel. It started when I was a kid. I was eleven years old, I think. 1112 something. When the Gandhi movie came out. You know, the Ben Kingsley Gandhi movie. And I was in the movie theater and I saw the movie and, you know, I'm like a kid, right? I was, like, in fourth grade, and, you know, all my classmates are like, oh, my God, like, this movie is 3 hours long. What are we doing? Like, it's so boring, right? I. And I was riveted. I mean, absolutely just riveted. And, like, I was super emotional, like, you know, like, through the whole thing. And I remember being at the end of the movie, and I was just like, what the hell was that? Just happened to me? And so from that point forward, I was like, I felt this profound connection to India. Like, inexplicable. I had never met anyone from India prior to that. I'd never had any connection to it whatsoever. And something about that, the movie. And. I don't know. I can't explain it, you know? And it got me, in my later years, really thinking about, like, reincarnation. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:46] Speaker B: You know, and, like, is this, like, a past life thing? Right, right. So, yeah, so then I just always knew, like, I gotta go to India. And so went for the first time in 2002, and then I went. And then I've been like. [00:06:01] Speaker A: Which must have been like a dream come true at that point. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Oh, it was amazing. And it was so crazy because I remember, like, getting off the plane in Delhi, like, we flew into Delhi and getting off the plane, and, like, the minute that my feet touched the ground, I was like, I'm home. I'd never felt home anywhere in my life. Anywhere. No matter where I'd been, I never felt at home. And there was something about it that just. I was like, I'm home. That's it. And so I just feel like a deep. A deep draw attraction to the. Definitely to the people, to the place. And I've often wondered, like, if it was. I was adopted. And I've often wondered if it has something to do with being adopted, because it was like, there's such a sense of, like, you belong when you go there. There's such a sense of family and community among the. Like, all of the people that are. That are in India, right? Like, families are super tight. And so when I was there in 2018, I had this just amazing experience of, I was visiting very close friend of mine and we were deciding, like, where we were gonna go. This is in Nagpur, which is in central India, and we were gonna take a trip to Madhya Pradesh, which is like, north. And so I, you know, okay, so if you were gonna plan a trip with a friend, right? You would just be like, okay, hey, these are the options. We could take a bus, train, we could take a motorcycle, we could take a car, we could write whatever. You'd have, like, a ten minute conversation and you figure it out between the two of you, right? You'd be like, okay, that's what I'm doing, right? Oh, no, it's not like that. In India, you have everybody. There were all of the people that he lived with. Like, we had the input of seven other people who were like, well, here are the advantages and disadvantages of taking a motorcycle. And here are the advantages and disadvantages of taking a car and doing this and doing that and, like, what if there's weather and blah, blah, blah, blah, and how much suitcase? And I never been in an experience like that where they're not going. Those other people are not going. It is only the two of us. They have no investment whatsoever in how we decide to get ourselves to Madhya Pradesh. And it was such an amazing experience for me because I was like, I don't. Like, why do they care? Right? Like, what possible reason do they have? They were genuinely invested in how we did this. Not because they're control freaks, but because they cared that we were safe, that the trip was the best it could possibly be, that it was the most affordable. And that was, I think, one of my first experiences of, like, a truly collectivist culture. Right? It's not even having a direct impact on them, but they were so. They cared so much about what the experience was gonna be like for us. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:00] Speaker B: They gave us hours and hours and hours. I mean, hours of let him like. [00:09:05] Speaker A: Guys, it's all right. We're taking a train. [00:09:07] Speaker B: This was me too. So I had my own learning curve around it, right? And I'm the oldest in the group by far. I'm with a bunch of, like, you know, I think the oldest person was maybe 30. And I was like, you know, 50 by then, in my late forties, and. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, we're just gonna take a motorcycle? Like, what are we doing? Like, why are we having this big discussion? Okay, I'm gonna decide. Yeah, but in. But I had to learn that, right? That, like, oh, yeah. I didn't think about that and realize, like, how beneficial the collective was. It slowed down the process significantly. This I'm talking when I say hours, I'm talking six, seven hour conversation over what we're gonna do, right? [00:09:52] Speaker A: It almost seems like some. It almost seems a little bit inefficient. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Like, where it's, like, it's completely inefficient, but there's nothing efficient about it. However, when we sat down and talked about all of the different options, it was like, oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. Right. The collective mind. And so I felt that especially because, like, my brother's eight years older than I am, I was basically an only child. Right. Because he was out of the house by the time I was, you know, started to grow up. And so I felt very isolated as a kid. And so I. I often wondered if, like, something about indian culture really attracts me. Like, something about the collectivism and the care for everyone in the community was attractive to me. Like, I don't have to make all the decisions myself. Right. That, like, we have this supportive community that can sort of help me think through decisions. [00:10:47] Speaker A: For sure. [00:10:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I I definitely. That's something I've had to learn a lot in. In my experience. Sort of acculturation to indian culture is like, yeah. It's not. I don't. I think as Americans, sometimes we think we know it all. Right. I mean, I definitely think we have that attitude sometimes. [00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I I definitely have found myself, like, I don't think I've ever experienced, like, a. Like a collectivist, kind of like that. [00:11:12] Speaker B: That sort of thing. Yeah. [00:11:13] Speaker A: But I do think that there is a closeness to. Didn't resonate with you. [00:11:18] Speaker B: It was like, while I was talking, it was like, yeah. I was like, oh. [00:11:22] Speaker A: Think that there is a certain closeness that exists other places. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Have here. [00:11:27] Speaker B: Totally. [00:11:28] Speaker A: It's like, yeah. Like, I. That. That's kind of like why I want to get the fuck out of here as soon as possible. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:11:34] Speaker A: But it's like, um. Yeah. I don't know if, like, I kind of try to approach everything like, well, I don't know anything about this, but I think that's just me. [00:11:42] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Not saying that that doesn't exist in other people. I'm sure that it does, but, like, I don't know. Like, I've never experienced anything like that. It is. It attracts me to. Yeah. Like, to where you could go, like, possibly go somewhere and just end up with people caring about you as opposed to here. We're like, literally no one does. [00:11:58] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:11:59] Speaker A: No one gives a fuck about what you're doing. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah. It's so different. And I know that, like, a lot of my indian friends, they really struggle sometimes when they are coming to the US for the first time, because they, you know, they're like, wait a minute. Like, it's really hard. I think, for many of them, what they've shared is that it can be really difficult to sort of break into american culture. Right. Because they're. When you go to India, the reason why I have so many friends in India is because they just take you in. Like, you just feel like you belong. There's. There's just an absolute welcoming of, like, you know, that's part of hindu philosophy, too, is. Right. Like, you treat the stranger like a God, and so there's. But it is so mean. It is. It is not just a philosophy. It is a way of life. Like, you are brought into people's homes, and they treat you just like family. [00:12:49] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:12:50] Speaker B: And so there's. I think there was a sense of, like, that. I don't know. There's just something about, like, I'm not. I don't have to figure this out on my own. [00:13:01] Speaker A: I remember. I'll never forget. This is, like, making me think of this. The first time my cousin Veronica came here from Italy. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Mmm. [00:13:07] Speaker A: And she saw a man eating in his car, and she thought that was like this, so. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:14] Speaker A: And I was like, right? To me, it was like, yeah, exactly. But, like, to her, it was like, where's the closeness? Where, like, there's nobody. He doesn't have a family. Like, right. Eating with anyone. And I'm like, even. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Even, like, in India, you'll see, like, the auto rickshaw drivers, right? Like, you'll never. I I. I don't want to say never, but, like, you'll see them all pulled over together. Right. There'll be, like, five or six of the auto Rick rickshaws lined up, and they're all eating together. [00:13:42] Speaker A: That's awesome. You. [00:13:43] Speaker B: You just don't see that. Like, I can't even remember a time of walking into a restaurant and seeing someone eating by themselves. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah. It's. It's. It's incredible. [00:13:52] Speaker A: It's funny. Like, that is, like, when somebody asked me, why Ireland? Like, I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, that's not, like, uh, they're nothing. I don't know if they're comparable in any ways, like, India, but, like, at least in the way of, like. [00:14:05] Speaker B: And have you been there before? [00:14:07] Speaker A: Ireland? [00:14:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I lived there. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Oh, you did live there. [00:14:10] Speaker A: For a year. [00:14:11] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:14:12] Speaker A: But it was, um. Like, I've been to Ireland, I think, six times now. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Wow. [00:14:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Wow. But, um, I'm trying to think, what the hell was I saying? So one thing that it's. I explained this to somebody recently, and I don't know. I explained it really well and when I was talking to them. But there is, like, a. Like that said, like, even when you're talking about those rickshaw drivers, that sense of community, that's like, going to the pub. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Like, what? Is this true? Like, I sort of have this fantasy in my head because I've never been to Ireland or. Or, like, London or anything like that, where you go to the pub and, like, everybody kind of, like, there's just this sense. [00:14:51] Speaker A: No, that's. That's what it is. That's what it's like. Is what it is to me. I'm like, okay, like, going. [00:14:56] Speaker B: So I'm not stereotyping. [00:14:57] Speaker A: No, no. Like, that's like. I mean, obviously, maybe in, like, bigger cities. It's not, like, really like that. Like, I'm sure in Dublin, in the neighborhoods yet. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:05] Speaker A: But, like, in, like, obviously the most touristy areas, probably not. But, like, where I was, it was like, oh, we go to this pub that's like work, and it was like, howie and his friends that he's known his whole life, and their wives. Yeah. And their kids and their fathers. [00:15:20] Speaker B: And, like. [00:15:21] Speaker A: And it was just like, we don't have anything. Like, when I think about going to the bar here, it's like, oh, great. [00:15:27] Speaker B: I gonna sit there by myself. [00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Bunch of 21 year old kids. Like, it has no real history. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Is that what the appeal of aroma Cafe is? So there's some sense of, like, familiarity? [00:15:40] Speaker A: I think that's. That's kind of what they said. Is that, like, they want to be like. Like that. Whatever that is that. That art, that archetype of, like, cheers, you know? You do want to go somewhere. Yeah. You're social. Everyone knows you. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Right? [00:15:57] Speaker A: There's, like, some, like, there's something good about that. You know what I mean? And, like, a lot of other places have it. [00:16:03] Speaker B: And did you not experience that growing up italian? I mean, I. You know, we're both italian, and, like, I definitely grew up with that. When I was a kid. We had extended family around, and, you. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Know, I think it's the fact that I did grow up with that. And because, like, growing older, your family's dying off, your cousins are moving away. [00:16:21] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:16:21] Speaker A: The old neighborhood ain't the neighborhood. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Whereas, like, it's like, don't. What the fuck happened? Everybody. [00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Where did everybody go? [00:16:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:30] Speaker A: And, like, I think more so because I did grow up like that. We're like, you could walk down to the corner of my blog and there was just guys and it was like, oh, what's going on? You know, and everybody was there and you had, you went to Sunday dinner and the everyone, you know, I'm saying, all your aunts, all your uncles, all your cousins, everybody was there. And now it's like as you get older, that shit vanishes and you don't really know how good it was looking back on it, but. [00:17:01] Speaker B: And that's what you feel draws you to iron. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, wow, you guys still do this? Like, it didn't, like you never were like, well, fuck this, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna move. Fucking like, cuz you gotta remember too. Like even if you move somewhere else in Ireland, you're still right there. That's like moving to like pa or something. And I don't know, I saw that and there was something. And not to mention, I like, there's something about that people that like, I don't know what it is, but like them in the Scots where it's like even the English do, even though they're like somewhat different, but like they, the poor English, there's something about them where it's like, yo, you could fist fight one of them and then being the. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Next day you're having a drink together that night. What do you think is, what do you think is the reason why we don't have that here? [00:17:53] Speaker A: I don't know. I mean, obviously, like, it's more, I don't know, this is like we're gonna go into like realms where I, like, I'm really, I've made it, like I've been intentional about, like I don't give that fuck up that much of a fuck about like the economy. I don't care about like capitalism or Kami. I don't care. I'm sorry, I just don't, I, I want to, I can't even say that I want to care cause I don't wanna care, but at the same time it's like, I just don't. [00:18:21] Speaker B: Yeah, but as a philosopher, like, if you were to look at, like if you were to look at sort of the philosophical underpinning of american culture, that's. [00:18:31] Speaker A: Another thing too though, is that like, I feel like all of my philosophical, like the things that I like about. [00:18:36] Speaker B: It, even though I like about what that it is. [00:18:38] Speaker A: What, like, I love metaphysics, right? I love, I love like logic. Yeah, like I love stuff like that. I love philosophy of mind concepts from that for forever. But like, I don't know if any of that does anything other than, like, give me a sense of, like, an ability to be analytical about things. Like, I'm not, I don't know anything about capitalism. Literally nothing. [00:19:03] Speaker B: So can you apply those analytical skills that attract you to, like, philosophy of mind and logic to sort of cultural system in the United States that pushes us away from this sense of collectivism? [00:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. We would have to, like, there would be, like, at least from what I've understood about, like, having conversations, like, because obviously we live in a world that is extraordinary. Like, we live in a time where it's, like, it's really, it's crazy, right? Like, the left and the right and everything. Yeah. And, like, the way in, like, just the things that it affects the day to day life. Right. Like, you go out and there's a big Trump rally or there's a big protest or something like that, and you don't know how to feel or, like, what you should be thinking about this current issue or, and stuff like that. But, like, I've kind of, now that I don't know if this is actually true anymore, but, like, when I became, when I actually had a criminal, had a criminal record, I at least was told, I don't, I actually don't think it's true that I couldn't vote anymore. But at that point, I was just like, great. Nothing more to worry about. [00:20:07] Speaker B: You checked me out of the system. I have to do it myself. [00:20:11] Speaker A: I no longer have to care because I can't take part in the process. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:16] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think it would. But I guess what I was saying is, is that it would be with a lot of missteps. Like, I would have a lot of, like, preconceived notions that are probably bullshit or, like, you know what I mean? Like, it would be like, with a lot of, like, just, like, assumptions and, like, stuff like that, that I don't feel like doing the work to work. This is the way I see the world in this way, and I never do anything about it. It's not something that, like, my political, the things that I would like to see from the world and, like, a in, when it comes to politics. And so I don't give that much of a fuck about it. [00:20:49] Speaker B: What would you like to see? [00:20:51] Speaker A: A humanity that works together. That's pretty much it. Like, that trite, like, less suffering in the ways that I know that we could probably do something about. We let, like, a fiction of, like, economy and, like, money getting money. It's like, it's, it's odd to me that there's like, even though this is gonna be filled with a bunch of, like, judgments and value statements and stuff like that, where it's like. Like, I think that if you can look at something that I would say is like, I guess how it's been proposed to me or how it's been shown to me is like, consciousness is somewhat a miracle, right? Like, not a miracle in the sense. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Of, like, we kind of touched on this just briefly at the cafe, remember? [00:21:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:33] Speaker B: We just started to talk about it and then. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't even know if that's, like, I don't. Like, I tend to withhold that I'm an agnostic and many things. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:41] Speaker A: So it's like, it's not like I'm like, oh, God, or anything. I don't know. I really would never sit here and be like, you have to like the gods there and there's a purpose. And as a matter of fact, a lot of the times I'm more inclined to say that there isn't one and that there is no purpose and that this is all probably just stupid bullshit. We're privy to a fucking reality where it's like, you're gonna die and that's infinity. Like that. That's probably more where I align. But then I hear things, and obviously there's something really human about the hope that arises in me to say, you know what I mean? Like, I'm like, wow, consciousness actually might be. [00:22:15] Speaker B: So where do you think that hope arises from? [00:22:18] Speaker A: Probably just like. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Like, do you think it's conditioned or do you think it's something. You know what I'm saying? [00:22:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think it's probably, like some kind of, like, biological thing that, like, where it's, like, this will give you, like, maybe like a bio biological, like, like a survival. Like. Like a lean towards this. This is comfortable to think like this because, like, when you're up at night thinking about your death and, and all that it. That entails, and it's scaring the shit out of you, you could probably, like, find some solace in the hope that, like, these concepts have or whatever. But what was I, I was saying something about that. Oh, that's. Yeah, so, like, when you can look at that, if you could, like, if you could give the title of miraculous or something like that to consciousness, and then you look at something like money, right? And I know this is all like. And this is another thing too, is that, like, I've realized that, like, these aren't very profound things, but, like, to me, it just seems like, okay, there's a bunch of people starving. Feed them. You don't. I mean, who cares about the money that's involved? You don't mean it's like. But, like, again, that's not practical. That's not the way we live. That's not the way we do things. So it's like, I don't know of any good answers. I don't care to seek them out. I wish I could feed everybody on planet Earth. I wish I could cure cancer and every other disease. The sad part about that is, is that I can't do that. But I know as a species, we probably collectively. Yeah, like, it was like, no, if we. It is a belief of mine that if tomorrow we woke up and on the television across the world, it was broadcast, every single human mind be invested in the cure for cancer. Like, not like all cancers, because I know that's, that's an umbrella term. There's multiple different cancers. There's multiple different things. But I do think that. And not to say that, like, every mind has to contribute something to research, even if it was, you have to go serve burgers for the people who are going to drive the people to the thing. You know what I mean? Let's all do it. I do think that that would be a thing of the past soon to come. I do think that human beings have the ability to do amazing things. [00:24:30] Speaker B: So do you think we're too divided in our goals or. [00:24:33] Speaker A: I just. Yeah, it's like, there's, like, this emphasis. Like, that's the thing that's wrong with my opinion or, like, my view of the world is that, like, I want to, like, eradicate diversity of, like, a thought and opinion. And, like, I want us to be like a hive mind. Like. [00:24:48] Speaker B: Like, unified. [00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:49] Speaker B: Something. [00:24:50] Speaker A: We are going to Mars and we're gonna colonize it. And that's our planet now. We're gonna traverse the stars. That's what we care about. We're a hive mind where, you know, I mean, and that's like, nobody wants to live like that. You know what I mean? That's just like. And I could see that that's taken some really ugly faces throughout history. Right? So it's like, you should probably not think like that, or not, like, not care enough about it to where it affects anybody else. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Well, it sounds like it's like how we direct it, right? [00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:16] Speaker B: And that's rooted in our value system. So we can be, you know, we can be part of the Stasi. Right. Which is like, okay, we wanna, like, we want to put our mind toward one unified vision. Right. That's, that's pretty dark and evil. Or we can put our mind towards something that's beneficial for humanity. Right. But then we talk about what's beneficial. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:25:39] Speaker B: And then becomes my value system. [00:25:41] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:42] Speaker A: To them. That was valuable. [00:25:43] Speaker B: That was, that was incredibly valuable. [00:25:45] Speaker A: That's another thing, too, is like, I don't even know why I value human life so much. [00:25:49] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Like, it could be all from, like, what I was saying earlier is that, like, I mean, well, you should value human life. And it, like, it could be that it has some intrinsic value based off of the fact that it could be Mira, it could be all these things. But, like, without that stuff, why, what basis do I have to value human life? I actually never have been given a good argument. And maybe that's something that you could do or maybe something somebody else could do, whereas, like, morals and ethics and all this stuff, I just never, I'm like, that's another part of philosophy where I'm just like, don't care that much because it's like, to me, there may not be much truth in that. [00:26:28] Speaker B: And, like, you mean in terms of an absolute morale. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, whereas, like, without, like, and I know people have tried to do it. I'm very young in my philosophical career of studying it, like, formally or whatever, but, like, when it comes to, like, objective morals, like a naturalist view, what is, what's where is that? Like, is like, who's done it? Tell me where to what to read. And, like, no one, at least from what I've seen, have they? There's no system that exists out there that anybody's ever, like, really developed that says, well, like, that set that suffices for most philosophers to say, that's the one. This is why we should, we should believe this. There's no problems with that or something like that. So I've kind of been like, okay, it's not to say people shouldn't work on it or take it up or whatever, but it's like, I, that's why I'm more inclined. I like philosophy of math, because in mathematics, there are truths, and they're necessary truths. They have to be that way. And, like, there's a beauty in the fact that two plus two equals four. [00:27:28] Speaker B: I know that there's a comfort in the definitiveness. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, this is fun. And, like, there's other things that people have said where it's like, math can be as beautiful as poetry. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Well, we kind of see that now with, like, physics, right. And, like, we're looking at physics and the ways that it. It kind of. I think we did talk about this the other night of, like, physics intersecting with consciousness. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. [00:27:54] Speaker B: And, like, is physics is. Are the. The components. Components of physics, right. Planks or quarks or whatever, did they have some level of consciousness in themselves? Right. That we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly like that. Somehow we are imbued with that. And, yeah, it's funny, because if you. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Talk like, I have a friend who's a professor of physics at UB. I won't say his name, but he is just completely against everything like that. But then again. [00:28:22] Speaker B: So what's his view? I'm curious. [00:28:23] Speaker A: Materialist. [00:28:24] Speaker B: Okay. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Configuration. Physical systems. And somehow out of that. But I don't think another thing that I've realized about extremely. He's one of the smartest people I know. I don't know him. And the math Maddox professor there. They're brilliant. But, like. And. But at least some for people I've realized that are not them so much, but, like, I date. I was like, I was dating a molecular geneticist. And it's just like, you don't have any idea, like, the stuff that you say. Like, she is very involved with the physical sciences. Right. It's just like, we know this stuff and this is the way it is. And it's like. [00:29:05] Speaker B: But you only know what questions you're asking. You only know the answers to the questions you're asking. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And it. [00:29:12] Speaker B: Right. There's so many things that we don't have. We might not even be asking the right questions. [00:29:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, it's like she thought philosophy was, like, so stupid. [00:29:22] Speaker B: And it's like. [00:29:23] Speaker A: But it's like, to me, she's. She's sitting there, she thinks philosophy is. Do we see the same color the same way? [00:29:29] Speaker B: Does this chair that I'm sitting on exist? [00:29:31] Speaker A: Exactly. Even though those are, like, philosophical in nature. It's like, that's not. You don't know what the fuck you're talking. [00:29:37] Speaker B: How did those conversations go? [00:29:39] Speaker A: I mean, we didn't last long, but it's like, a, it's disrespectful. B, I think it says, like, first off, you like. And I don't. I want to say this. And, like, some kind of, like, every scientist is somewhat of a philosopher, in a way. Oh, yes. Like, that's. That's what it came. That's the every. [00:29:58] Speaker B: Because at the root of it, okay. You know, philosophy is love of wisdom. [00:30:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:03] Speaker B: And so, like, isn't that what all scientists are doing, is? They're asking questions out of deep curiosity, which is exactly what philosophers are doing. [00:30:11] Speaker A: All of the physical sciences born. So it's like, to me, in early. [00:30:17] Speaker B: Like, I mean, hobbes and locke and all those, they were absolute natural scientists and philosophers. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Like, to me, it's like you guys are doing. It's like, that's. So when I sat down once with the physicist and I was, like, explaining to him about, like, because he. He said that, he was like, no, it's all about configuration of physical systems. And then I can't remember what. I can't remember if that's what he said. But I explained to him, like, the. There was a thing in philosophy of mine called multiple realizability about how, like, physical systems represent mental states in certain ways, but they don't. Like, that doesn't. They're not identical, because there was, like, a problem with identity theory when it came to, like, this brain state is pain, right? Like. But it's like, it's been shown to say, no, it's actually not that this is a physical representation of pain in this system, but other systems represent pain in certain ways. And, like, that goes to show that it isn't just this brain state. So it's like, even though, like, leaving that topic off, but, like, showing, like, explaining this them and just being like, does this change your view at all? You know what I mean? Like, can you then, like, are you not, like, not saying you have to go completely the other way or even, like, marginally just a little bit? It's like, maybe, will this. Will this make you think a little bit differently about, like, your. Your presupposite, like, your steadfastness in your belief? Yeah, like, it's all just physical, right? [00:31:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Even though it's like, what about. [00:31:53] Speaker B: What about the idea of there being, like, a limited, like, a finite mechanical system, right? In other words, like, we all have neurons, we all have, you know, we all have neurotransmitters, we all have sort of the same physiology, but yet the replications or the experiences of that are infinite, right? So the system itself, like, we're all wired the same way, right? That's how we understand human behavior. It's how we understand, you know, like, how my arms are moving right now as I'm talking, because I'm italian, right? But we have infinite iterations of those. So the systems that we have are finite, right. But how we express those are infinite. So that's another possibility. [00:32:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Are you saying like, the uniqueness of every system that comes into play. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Is this, is it the expression of the system? [00:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:32:54] Speaker B: So I'm wondering like, how like, for example, the woman that you dated might approach that. Because to me, that's a bit of. [00:33:01] Speaker A: A, like, it would probably. I don't know, it would be, it would be reduced somehow, like, you know. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Because that, because if you reduce that to that, because a final point, then you are a pure material. [00:33:12] Speaker A: A question. [00:33:13] Speaker B: A equals b always. [00:33:14] Speaker A: Yeah. A question that I have about that, though, is it like, is it truly infinite the way that it. That it can be expressed, or is there an amount of variables as to where. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. Yeah, but it seems like, I mean, okay, if it weren't infinite, then let's just say it's like a psychologist, we would be able to know for sure that this behavior can be rooted back to this, this and this. But, and that would make psychology not a soft science. It would make it a hard science. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Yeah, but in that same way, I don't know if that's like, it's almost, almost reminds me of, like in that Colin McGinn book that I read where he was, like, there are answers to questions where this may be a question like that, where even if consciousness isn't expressed infinitely, or like to an infinite magnitude by our physical systems, like, maybe there are just way too many variables to ever be able. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Right. And I think you're asking a really good question that of course, like, I have no idea. [00:34:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, because like, he asked. [00:34:14] Speaker B: The question, like, is it like PI? Right. That just continues infinitely and we don't know the end of it. Right. So the variables are just infinite, like going back to kind of your philosophy of mind and math. Right. So, like, does that mean that there's a set? [00:34:29] Speaker A: Like, there would have to be a set, like, but there are sets that there are infinite sets. [00:34:34] Speaker B: Right, exactly. Right, right, exactly. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Which is. That shit is crazy. [00:34:41] Speaker B: Right, exactly, exactly. [00:34:43] Speaker A: That's where I find a lot of you. I don't know what. What she would say to something like that, though, but she, I know, is not. A lot of the times I realize, like, it doesn't take. I can't say that. I don't want to say anything like that. Like, to where, like, I sound pompous because I don't think I'm a very smart man. I just kind of, like, I like philosophy. So, like, I'm more. But like, there are people out there where you. You talk philosophy with them and you're just like, wow. Like, you're. Bro, you're brilliant. And, like, I think there are certain sectors where it's like, I do really well, and there are certain sectors where I don't. But, like. [00:35:17] Speaker B: And when you say that someone is brilliant, kind of, what are you like when you. Brilliant? What are you experiencing in them? [00:35:24] Speaker A: I think it's more or less just like people are like, more. Well, like, they're like, people will be really into one thing, right? And then they're like, well, Plato said. And it's like, well, I don't know all about that. You mean, like, I didn't read the Republic 90 times? [00:35:37] Speaker B: That mean that they're brilliant? Yeah, just mean that they're really. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of like I'm taking a step back. [00:35:43] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm curious about that. [00:35:45] Speaker A: Like the math professor, I know he's brilliant. Like, he talks about the end. He is so open. He's always willing to engage. [00:35:52] Speaker B: So maybe openness is a sign of maybe brilliant. [00:35:54] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. I don't know, though, because it's like if you look back, like, what's he actually. What's the guy that they did the movie a brilliant mind about? [00:36:04] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:36:05] Speaker A: What the fuck was his name? [00:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right. He studied with Russell Crowe, was the one. I can't remember the guy's name. [00:36:12] Speaker A: He was a very not open man, but he was absolutely brilliant. [00:36:16] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:36:17] Speaker A: But in. I'm not trying to negate anything you're saying. All I'm saying is, is that he studied with that guy. Actually, one of his claim to fames is, is he removed a virus from that guy's computer. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Like, okay, okay. [00:36:32] Speaker A: I don't know if open. Like, even though it would seem to be. Because it's like maybe you're open in a certain kind of way, but just not like, I think that that is a mark of something because I find that, like, at least from talking to some people where it's like, her, I can look at her and be like, you'll never really, like, at least this is my own pompous, asshole ish mind. That's like, I look at her and I think to myself, like, you just don't have the curiosity that's there to be, like, curiousness. That's like, where? Yeah, if you're sitting there and you're. And you're just like, oh, we know everything. It's like, oh, well, good luck about the stuff that you really don't know. About. [00:37:12] Speaker B: But I feel myself to be profoundly agnostic. Like, there's so much. [00:37:16] Speaker A: Yeah, so much. [00:37:18] Speaker B: I am. [00:37:18] Speaker A: You can read forever and still be like. Absolutely. I think one of the biggest parts, at least, something that happened this summer, is that I've realized the value of amazing questions. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like, this is every second that I get to live, I get to think about this. [00:37:37] Speaker B: I mean, have you encountered an amazing question that you are, like, still kind of grappling with? [00:37:43] Speaker A: I think just like, the. Like, if you just. Because this summer I read. I reread. It's something I do. I've been doing, but it's like, I like to stay up on, like, um. Like, the. Just, like, fundamental thing. So I read. I have this book that I bought. It was, like, $3. Metaphysics, an introduction. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Oh, nice. I love those books. Yeah, metaphysics for dummies. That's me. [00:38:08] Speaker A: It's pretty much, like, it's just a guy. I can't remember his name. The hell was his name? Archie Baum is his name. [00:38:16] Speaker B: Okay. [00:38:16] Speaker A: He was a philosopher from the University of New Mexico. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Oh, fantastic. [00:38:21] Speaker A: And I like the way he, like, he talks in the book. Like, he's just. I like the way he says things, but, yeah, like, anytime I like, like, stuff like that, where you start to, like, really look at stuff, like, are these chairs the same? Well, they appear to be the same, but, I mean, they're at least. They're at least different in the fact that they're two separate things, but, like, are they actually different because they're the same in the fact that they're different. Even that, like, that's a silly thing. As opposed to, like, the hard problem of consciousness and stuff like that. Or it's like, that's a really good fucking question. Like, where it was, like, somebody sat, like, David Chalmers that there and thought about that, and it's, like, all the stuff that comes off of that, like, when you start talking about, like, the nature of a mind, then, like, how it all happens in your head. I I thought a lot about the free will thing, too. Like, and that's a lot. Like, that actually changed my life, that whole. That whole debate, because, like, thinking about that and realizing at least, like. And not to mention, like, a brief kind of, like, introduction to, like, the indian spiritual systems and stuff like that and introspective techniques and, like, looking at your own consciousness and, like, realizing that there's a lot of shit going on that don't have any control over. [00:39:35] Speaker B: So when you say looking at your own consciousness, like, I'm so curious about that expression because it's like, are we just looking at ourselves? Are we looking at something that's already within us, or are we looking at something that is, like, you know, when. When we use the expression of I'm looking at something, we're assuming that it's something outside of us that we can observe. Right? [00:39:58] Speaker A: Is that so? [00:39:59] Speaker B: Like, how do we. [00:40:00] Speaker A: Does it necessarily have to mean that, though? [00:40:02] Speaker B: I don't know. That's what I'm asking. [00:40:05] Speaker A: What do you think? [00:40:06] Speaker B: God, you know, I don't know. I just know for myself. Like, and this is totally experiential, and I can't begin to talk about the origin of where this stuff comes from, but I do know from my own experience that I have had things come in. I'm using air quotes come in that I have no idea where it came from. No idea. Like. Like, again, oh, here's a perfect example. When I was telling you about Gandhi, right? The Gandhi movie. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Where did that come from? I had zero association with indian culture. Zero. And I'm sitting among all of my classmates at 1112 years old. Not another one of them is having the same reaction. I mean, I am viscerally having an emotional response to this. Where did that come from? Right. I have. I cannot begin to answer that question. I don't know where that came from. So is that something that, like, okay, we could say that, you know, something was rooted in my experience, right? I had no experience with it. I had no experience with that culture, no experience with indian people. Had never met an indian in my life. Never. Never. Like, prior to that, never saw a movie about India. Probably didn't even hear of the country India. No idea. But something in that grabbed me at the deepest, most profound level without question. Grabbed me at the deepest level. [00:41:32] Speaker A: So I guess, I mean, the question after that, I think, would be, is there something about, like, just the. The human operating system that would do something like that in a case that sees something? You know what I'm saying? It's a whereas, like, but where does that. [00:41:46] Speaker B: Where. Where's the origin? Where's the seed of that thought idea that it wasn't even an idea. It was. It was an actual felt experience of, I know that place. I know that place. And when I went to India the first time and I told you, I got off the plane, I was like, oh, my God, I'm home. What does that mean? What does that mean? [00:42:08] Speaker A: I don't know. Like, there's a lot about stuff like that where I've like, kind of. I've questioned some things about lived experience in my, like. And I'm not trying to do this to what you're. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Oh, no, please. I'm totally open to having my experience interrogate. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't. That's not, like, my intention. Yeah, it's like I completely. I've had lich quite literally. No, like, I. I'm not, as a matter of fact, growing up italian, you're taught, like, you never do nothing with the Irish. But I love Ireland. Even in that, though, you could kind of see some kind of, like, weird, like, where it's like, I'm rebelling. I'm gonna go. Yeah. [00:42:52] Speaker B: So. So do you mind talking about, like, your first kind of, like, association with Ireland and, like, I don't. [00:42:58] Speaker A: I have. I honestly know, like, it literally is, like, within. It's in me. Like, I. Yeah. When I hear, like, like, music. Yeah, they have. There's a song that they sung in Limerick. It's called Sean. Sean south from Gary. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Oh. And like, you, I just have to say, you have, like, the biggest smile on your face. [00:43:19] Speaker A: I think about, like, the women and the cult. Like, the way that it makes me feel is just. I. There's not, like, a word, like, I would die for it. So I don't know where that comes from. I have no idea. But at the same time, I can't honestly say to myself at least, like, there's anything greater than, like, this is just a mystery. And, like, it's probably, like, at least for me, honoring the strength of the materialist position. Right, to where it's like, I have to, like, say to myself, at least for now. Good, because I try not to go too mystical. Right. Like, I, like, I want to be mystical. I want to believe in stuff. [00:44:01] Speaker B: You want to be mystical, but you hold yourself back from being this. [00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it's like, it's like, does it. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Enter into territory that just feels too nebulous? [00:44:08] Speaker A: It's. Yeah, it's like. It's like conjecture. Yeah. [00:44:10] Speaker B: It's all just poet poetic bullshit. [00:44:12] Speaker A: Yeah, like, like, people go too far, I think. Well, this is this and this is this. [00:44:19] Speaker B: And it's like, with some definitiveness that they really are ascribing to it that doesn't exist. [00:44:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, that's not necessarily like you are just saying that. [00:44:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:28] Speaker A: It's like, if we examine that, I'm sure that a different picture can be painted, and, like, the materialist, the physicalist position prevails, so we can't, like, so. [00:44:39] Speaker B: Do you think Ireland is somewhere in your, like, you know, neurotransmitters, your serotonin, your something? [00:44:44] Speaker A: I think. I think if we're. If we're, like, maybe, like, maybe when I was young or something, like, I heard a jig played somewhere and, like. But I think it's interesting as to where, like, you don't really know where any of this stuff comes from, right? Like, it's like, there are people who. I know who have been raised by this in the same kind of environment as me who became murderers. There are people who were raised in the same environment as me who have went on to become physicists or. You know what I mean? And I found something interesting, actually, in the most unlikely place, which was a documentary about Ted Bundy. Oh, did you ever watch. [00:45:20] Speaker B: I did the one on Netflix. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Super good. [00:45:22] Speaker B: Super good. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:45:23] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:45:24] Speaker A: Just as a timepiece, it's like, wow, this is, like, super, super crazy. But I remember him saying something because I guess when it came to his life, he didn't really have anything that. No. Yeah. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Totally. Normal childhood, everything. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Completely. [00:45:42] Speaker A: And I'm sure that in, like, psychology or something, somebody's figured it out somewhere where it was like. Well, maybe it was. I don't know. I. I honestly, I won't even begin. [00:45:50] Speaker B: To, like, at least in that documentary, what they shared was that there wasn't really some kind of trauma that could point to what led him to become the way that he did. [00:45:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And he said something in when, like, at the. At the time, like somebody was interviewing. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:05] Speaker A: And he said, like, it was something to the effect of, like, it could just be down to, like, the flap of a butterfly's wing. [00:46:12] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:46:14] Speaker A: So where it's like. And that's really how I see it, being a determinist, I guess, that, like, I look at it as. You really don't know how all of this is affecting you. It could just be, like, this fire. I honestly don't believe this. But, like, just in saying it could be a possibility that this fire could be the reason why I watch a specific movie later. You know what I mean? It could be that. I don't know. But. [00:46:39] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because I. Because you brought up the Ted Bundy documentary I'm watching, literally just in the middle of watching a PBS documentary on these two boys who were in Chicago. This is in the twenties, and they both came from very wealthy families, very prominent one, his dad was the vice president of Sears and Roebuck. The other one, I can't remember but at the time, one of the kids family was worth $4 million. Back in 20, like, in the early twenties, the other kids family was worth 10 million. They were both geniuses. Went to college at 14. Like, I mean, super privileged, super smart, had everything going for them. And they killed a 14 year old boy. And during the trial, it was like, everyone's trying to figure out why. Well, there was zero motivation for it. And during the trial, the boys are smiling. They're like. And they're asking them, like, you know, reporters and everything are asking, like, why did you do this? And they were like, it was fun. It was fun. And so there was nothing. It was. It was great. It's a great cultural piece. Because all, like, what ended up happening as a result of that was because this is, you know, the flapper twenties, right? And, like, prohibition and all this. And they're like, oh, american culture is, like, loosening up its morals, and I. We're corrupting our youth. And so, like, because everything is loosening up. Like, we're kids are getting off on killing people. Yeah, right. But. But it kind of goes to what you were saying about Bundy. Right? Like, there isn't necessarily a causal. You know, you can't trace it back to some cause of why this happened. [00:48:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:17] Speaker B: And so, again, why do I have this gravitation toward India? Why do you have a gravitation? I think Ireland. Right. [00:48:25] Speaker A: It's not so much that it could just be the fact that the cause isn't identifiable. Like. [00:48:33] Speaker B: It'S unconscious. [00:48:34] Speaker A: It's like. It's just like a. Like, you wouldn't liken it to that, but it did have interesting. [00:48:40] Speaker B: So maybe there was something. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know what it. I honestly thinking. Thinking to myself, I'm like, what, the foot? Why do I love it? Could be just the look of the women. Like, probably not that. Just. I do. Like, I see there's a woman, and I won't obviously go too far into this, but there's a woman that comes to the cafe that I know personally that I met in school, and she's. I'm just like, I would give her my entire life just based off of looks. But obviously that's not, like, that's just silliness. [00:49:10] Speaker B: And she's irish. [00:49:10] Speaker A: You can cut that part out. Oh, she's. It's just like, everything. It's, like, born into me to love it. Like, dark hair, freckles. [00:49:20] Speaker B: Same with me. Like, I have the same gravitation toward India. Like, there are, like, just indian men. I find extremely attractive. [00:49:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:30] Speaker B: Like, I just feel like this. [00:49:32] Speaker A: This reminds me of, uh. I was actually talking to a woman. Who is it? She's at UB. She's a neuroscience. She's involved in some kind of neuroscience. And like that's obviously, there's like some cross over there with floss, whatever. But she was telling me about. And I read this in a book, actually, once, about the, like the random, undetermined, like, like the. I can't remember what they're called, but they're like random firings. [00:49:56] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:49:57] Speaker A: The brain where it's like they don't really know what the cause is. They're nerve. [00:50:01] Speaker B: It's almost like a blip or something. [00:50:02] Speaker A: It's like. Yeah, I really do. I don't know how they register. I don't know much about that because like, that's kind of what it arises as a question where it's like when you're taught. And I'm sure Sapolsky would probably have something to say about. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure even in talking with her, because she was likening she wants. She was. It was odd because she was involved in the sciences, but she was very, she was. She was coming out very mystical. Like, she was like, yeah, cuz there's, you know, we just get. We just. Where we receive these ideas from outside of the whatever. And I was just like, okay, so are there, are there these? And I remember reading about it in a book, and I honestly didn't think that she would know about it. The book was a. Called waking, dreaming, sleeping or some shit like that. It was about like neuro phenomenology, something I can't remember. I didn't read the entire book, actually. I only read like part of it. It was at a friend's house and I regularly was visiting that friend. But um. So I asked her about. That was like, well, are there, are there random firings that are in, like not determined, like, you can't. And she was like, yeah, actually, we don't know what they are. And she was like. She admitted right then, and then she went on the whole spiel about how, yeah, these are, these are the ideas that we get from outside of ourselves. And I was like, but, but you already admitted as to, like, we have no idea what those things are. So how could you possibly be saying. [00:51:25] Speaker B: One of those coming from some external something that. [00:51:28] Speaker A: And it's like, you don't know, that could be nothing at all. They could. It could literally not arrive in your conscious experience. It could be something that's happening. Your toe twitches, even though that would arrive in your conscious experience. But, like, you get what I mean? It's like you're ascribing. [00:51:42] Speaker B: You're saying that you're giving it some attribution that might not exist. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like we have. Like, she likened it to the man who knew infinity, that guy who was just, like, getting mathematical. Yeah, yeah. What was his name? [00:51:56] Speaker B: It's. I can never remember his name, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:52:00] Speaker A: She was like, Oxford, I think. Yeah, yeah. He died very young. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was cool. That was a wonderful story. [00:52:07] Speaker B: That was a great book. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I watched the movie. It was called. There's a movie. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I read the book. It clerk. Something about the clerk. [00:52:16] Speaker A: He was a key. He was a. The movie was called a man. The man who knew Infinity. [00:52:20] Speaker B: Okay. I think the book is called something different. Why? [00:52:23] Speaker A: He was a clerk. He was a clerk, yeah, exactly. [00:52:24] Speaker B: It's something about. [00:52:25] Speaker A: It was just, like, doing. [00:52:28] Speaker B: He came to him and gave him the insight, like, basically downloaded the mathematical. [00:52:32] Speaker A: Was like, these are thoughts of God. [00:52:34] Speaker B: Right, right. He was in. He was from South India. Yeah, yeah. [00:52:38] Speaker A: Madras, right, madras, exactly. So, like, that's. That's the thing, is that it was like. You're just saying that, you know, like, you don't know what those are, and I don't know if that actually happens. Like, that's like, I want to believe, just like everybody else, that we get divine inspiration, whatever, but I can never actually say for certain. It's like. And I did not only can I not say for certain that that's what's happening, I don't know what it would take to actually convince me. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Right. Able to know. [00:53:10] Speaker A: What would it take you? Like, what? Other than no. Yeah. Like, even if God came down and, like, you would. [00:53:16] Speaker B: I would. I probably doubt that it was God. [00:53:18] Speaker A: Like, I'm fucking insane. [00:53:20] Speaker B: Like, I pinch myself. I'd be like, am I elucidating this? Yeah, I wouldn't believe it. Yeah. [00:53:25] Speaker A: So, yeah, I don't know. Like. Well. [00:53:27] Speaker B: Well, sort of to this point, too. So, like, I just finished reading sapiens, and. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Oh, it's a good book. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Oh, really? [00:53:33] Speaker A: I picked that up in. I was in an airport. [00:53:36] Speaker B: Oh. [00:53:37] Speaker A: And it was in there. And I was like, what's this about? And I got on the plane, and it was, like, covered. I was amazing. [00:53:43] Speaker B: Good, right? I couldn't put it down. It was so good. So, anyway, we were with Joel's dad the other night, and. And, like, when I was here the last time, I recommended it to his dad, and it was so sweet. Like, we had dinner together and his dad's like, oh, he's like, I've got a great book to recommend. It's sapiens. And he'd forgotten that I had recommended it. It was so sweet. And so I was like, oh, that's great. And like, what do you think? And so then I told him about documentary that came out. I think it came out in 23. And it's called unknown, the cave of bones. Do you know about this? [00:54:16] Speaker A: No. [00:54:17] Speaker B: So they. They then. Lady is like another species of home of, like, us, right? Yeah. Hominids. And they. It's. It's 300,000 years ago. So it predates homo sapien. Sapien. It predates homo erectus. It predates everything. Right. They found it in a cave in South Africa. They discovered this cave in South Africa. So what I'm getting at with this is that the really, for me, one of the most profound things is that in this cave, they found sketches on the cave walls that match sketches of the neanderthals that match sketches. [00:54:56] Speaker A: This actually, I may have actually seen this. Is it like. Is it like. [00:55:00] Speaker B: Yes. Super down, right? [00:55:02] Speaker A: I'm trying to remember. [00:55:04] Speaker B: Totally. [00:55:05] Speaker A: I think I did watch this. I can't remember anything, but I remember there being like, it was like they were worth it. What was it? Almost like it was like a funeral. Like. [00:55:20] Speaker B: I don't remember much, so I don't know if you remember, but one of the cool things that they showed was, like, they showed these sketches that they. That were on the cave walls. Like, these scratchings on the cave walls. And they were like, these are exactly the same sketches that the neanderthals were drawing. These are the same sketches that homo sapiens were drawing. So for me, that's like, what is that? Like, why would these different species of us. Right? Why would species. Right. No, same species, but different iterations. So, like, why would we. Where does that come from? Where does that urge. I know now I'm like. I'm wondering. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you. Yeah. So, like, where. Like, where is that coming from? And so, I mean, I guess, like, a big fascination for me has always been with, like, the collective unconscious and, like, what is that? Right? And, you know, because Jung talked about this idea of, like, there is this some. Some sort of body of knowledge that exists that we as sentient beings, as human beings with a consciousness and an awareness and a mind that we somehow are tapping into no matter where we are in the world. You know, when we were separated by continents. Right. And we had no way of being in contact with each other. Why do we have these same images? [00:56:58] Speaker A: I feel like there is a way. Like, I call it, and I know it's been used before, but it's like the Os. Right. That we run. [00:57:07] Speaker B: Right. I love that operating system. Yeah. [00:57:09] Speaker A: I think that, like, what? Because people do this. [00:57:12] Speaker B: What is that hardwired then? Do you think it's, like, neurobiologically or neurophysiologically hardwired into. [00:57:19] Speaker A: Yeah, like, I mean, there are, like, s is p. Right. So, like, there are logical ways. [00:57:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:57:25] Speaker A: And, like, that's. That is the way we see the world. [00:57:28] Speaker B: Why would we draw things the same? What do you think? [00:57:30] Speaker A: I don't know. Like, that's another that. I mean, obviously, it's a miss. I don't know. But, like, at the end of the day, it's like a. Like. Like, for instance, when people start talking about, like, the. The pyramids, right? [00:57:41] Speaker B: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:57:42] Speaker A: That's a big thing. [00:57:43] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:57:43] Speaker A: Where it's like, oh, there's pyramids over. [00:57:45] Speaker B: Here, and there's pyramids over here, and they're constructed the same way, and it's. [00:57:48] Speaker A: Like, dude, maybe that's just, like. You can't really, like, the grandiose conclusions that you're arriving at based off of the fact that these people built geometrical shapes are just, what? Like, you can't get there to me, where it's like, oh, like, aliens were like, I don't. I don't know. It is a. It's a great mystery. It's a wonderful question. But it's like, I just. I. Maybe it's just there's something in it. Like, it's also something to be said about the fact that homo sapiens developed spiritual systems. [00:58:21] Speaker B: Yes, yes. You know, that's the interesting thing about that documentary with the home and the lady. Right. It's like they had funerary practices. [00:58:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:30] Speaker B: 300,000 years ago. And if you have this idea of funerary practices where they. And I don't know if you remember from the documentary, but they found a child that was buried with a tool in its hand, and so why would you do that if you don't believe that there's an afterlife? [00:58:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:48] Speaker B: And I'm not saying that that's the only possible theory. It could be that, oh, this was a special object, and, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with an afterlife, particularly, but the fact that there is this notion that this is not just a physical thing that is coming to an end. Right. It is not just a bunch of, like, chemicals and bones and marrow and all of these things that is just coming to an end, and that's it. There is this sense of something beyond, I think. [00:59:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that's like, I always wondered about the nature of, like, an end. Like, I shouldn't say the nature, but, like, the. The purpose in, like, a biological organism for something. Like an NDE. Yeah, I've always wondered that, like, what's the biological purpose of. Of, like, some kind of spiritual experience? And I thought about. I can't remember what it was because it could just be the fact of, like, where it's like, random neural. Like fire. [00:59:52] Speaker B: Yeah, could be just some. Yeah, exactly. Right. But then the white light is like, you know, some kind of neural firing has to do with end of life. [00:59:59] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's odd, though, because it's like, why does it have the qualia? It has. [01:00:03] Speaker B: Yes. [01:00:03] Speaker A: It's like. It's like there's, like, everyone. Not everyone too. It's like, first a. Not everyone has nD. [01:00:09] Speaker B: Right. Right. [01:00:10] Speaker A: At least, like, that have passed on or the comeback. Obviously, we don't know what the fuck. Some people have had terrible experiences, which is. That sounds terrible, but it's. Why would it have any experience? Well, I mean, this. That's a. The greater question about, like, anything as to, like, why it has an experience. You know what I mean? Like, like, how physical systems create an experience that is subjective is strange, but, like, I don't know, like that. That's a, like. But if you just look at ndes, even though we understand ndes, there's. I can't remember the name of the woman, but she did a lot of work. She know they're inducible. You can. You can, like, there's the. The people that did the NASA training or whatever, it's like, almost induces the same. [01:01:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. [01:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah, but in that. With it. With that being said, it's like I said, that doesn't really answer the question as to, like, why that's there. [01:01:09] Speaker B: Yes. [01:01:10] Speaker A: If that. If there is any answer to that question, or maybe it's a silly question, it could be like. But like, it. [01:01:15] Speaker B: Well, in kind of new age circles, like, one of the ideas is that we are evolving into. Agreed. Like, we are evolving into almost pure consciousness where. Where our physical body is going to fall away and our consciousness is going to expand to the point of, like, we're. We're. We're. Maybe we don't inhabit any material sense of being that and, you know, like, maybe the sense of, like, an enlightened yogi. Right. They're already sort of on that precipice. And so I guess, like, I. When I think about, like, the evolution of our existence, like, what is it? And this is just purely for, like, you know, kind of curiosity without needing to have any sort of, like, okay, this is the answer. But, like, I do believe that we're evolving towards something. I just. I just have that sense of sense, right. That we are evolving towards. [01:02:16] Speaker A: Do you see that? There was a recent thing, actually was, like, people, like, we're actually, like, our brains are getting bigger. [01:02:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, and if you think about, like, how, you know, from embryo to, like, you know, full born newborn, we evolved from the base of our brain to our, you know, executive functioning to our prefrontal. Prefrontal cortex. And it. This is where all of that happens, right? Because the back of our brain, the amygdala, is all of our, like, instinctual brain, right? That's fight or flight. That's all of that, right? And that's what we would call, like, our primitive brain. But as it almost seems to me that that is our evolution as a species as well, that somehow it's a roadmap for our own evolution. I don't know. I just. Because, like, one of the things that I've experienced or, you know, or have talked to other people about who have had these, you know, maybe spiritual experiences or who are studied as shamans or whatever that is, and also, like, psychedelic experiences can reflect this, that. [01:03:24] Speaker A: My professor. My old professor actually did a thing about the. She just wrote about. It's in. It's in a philosophical journal about the philosophy of psychedelics and. [01:03:35] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [01:03:36] Speaker A: Like, a epistemic value of those kinds of experience. [01:03:39] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. And what were. What was her. [01:03:42] Speaker A: I didn't. She actually, like, shared a friend of mine, the, like, her clip notes or something. They didn't come. It didn't come out yet. At the time. I'm not even sure if it's published yet. [01:03:53] Speaker B: Okay. [01:03:54] Speaker A: That was, um. But she. Yeah, there. I get what you. You're saying. [01:03:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:59] Speaker A: Because the. The problem I have with that kind of stuff is I don't know if, like, those your experience on, like, I have friends that have done DMT. Right? Like, and that's, like, obviously the most profound thing there is. And, like, I also have friends that have been to Peru, and I've done, um, like, not Ayahuasca. There's a. What's the other mescaline trips. Like, it has a profound spiritual effect. There are a couple things that, like, throw me off of, like, a weird. Like, one thing is that, like, the message is never the same, or it's, like, vague or, like, unclear. [01:04:38] Speaker B: What do you mean by the message? [01:04:40] Speaker A: Like, it's like, all right, so. [01:04:41] Speaker B: So they get some insight, but it's variable. [01:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like. It's like one. One contradicts the other. Right. Where it's like, oh, I felt like I was a part of this. I am the universe, and it's like a non dual kind of experience. And then there's the other where it's like they showed me everything about my life and, like, my soul. Like, it was like, you know, I mean, this. Like, I am this separate from interest. Like, there are gods I was talking to, you know. You mean separate entities. And it's like, to me, that kind of, um. It's like, well, ark. And, like, I mean, I guess a question for that would be like, can both of these be simultaneous simultaneously? [01:05:19] Speaker B: True, right? [01:05:20] Speaker A: And then, like, another thing was, if they cannot be, one of these definitely isn't true. Right. Because it's either. It's one of two ways and. Yeah, I like. And not to mention, it's like, there's also something to be said, at least in ND's I don't know about. Like, I do think it's kind of peculiar that, like, DMT trips and stuff like that, they. They have, like, wild attributes that people share. Like, people think, did you see that thing? And, like, people be like, I saw that thing. It's like, what is that thing? Why is that thing arriving? It's like. You don't even mean. It's like. [01:05:53] Speaker B: You mean that they have a shared experience. [01:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, like, those. [01:05:56] Speaker B: And they're both experiencing, like, same image. [01:05:59] Speaker A: Or same entity of a sore. And it's like, what do you mean? But then again, it's like, you. You then have other people. Like, I have a friend named Dave. I won't say his last name, but he had an experience on DMT that was just nothing. It was, like, so trivial. Like, he's eat. And Dave is, like, one of the most experienced space cadets I know. Best smoked DMT multiple times. And he was like, he told me about his last trip on DMT, and he was like, I'll never do it again. It was like. It was very scary or blah, blah, blah. But it was like, that's why it comes. Like, it makes me, like, question. I'm like, maybe this is all just like, brain trick. You know what I mean? Like this. It could just all be not like, even in saying that, though, it's like, what does that mean? [01:06:41] Speaker B: Right. What is it? [01:06:42] Speaker A: What does that mean? I don't know, but I tend to question, like, there was something I pondered a while ago which was like, do feelings validate anything? Because it's like, like you do. It's like you, do feelings validate the existence of anything or a narrative? Or do they only validate the feelings of themselves? Whereas, like, if you're in a situation. [01:07:02] Speaker B: It'S like, self referential, you mean? [01:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like you're. You're sitting here saying, like, like, I've heard a lot of people be like, you have to value my lived experience in certain situations. But it's like, does that do anything for the actual truth of the situation? That's an actual question. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Give me, like, a more specific example of what you mean. [01:07:21] Speaker A: I'm trying to think of, like, something that's not, like, acts like an actual happened. Whereas, like, all right, if you could imagine, like, somebody goes into a store, right? And like, all right, you walk into a store, say, and the person stalking the shelves, okay? And you're walking around trying to find something to eat, and they're following you. And you think to yourself, these stalking me? Yeah, they think I'm stealing, but maybe. [01:07:51] Speaker B: But maybe they're really has nothing to do with that. [01:07:53] Speaker A: Exactly. So you walk out of that story, and you're bent out of shape, you're angry. This motherfucker just followed me around. And to you, that's gospel of Paul, right? Like, that doesn't say anything about what actually happened. So, like, when people start to say. [01:08:12] Speaker B: Like, this was my lived experience. [01:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I did this. I felt that. And you can't tell me anything else about how that felt. It's like that doesn't do anything for the truth of the matter if there is a truth to be had. Right? So it's like, I I don't know. Like, that's why it's like it. I tend to take, like, claims and stuff like that about. About. I'm skeptical, I guess, but I'm always. I'm skeptical to an extent. It's like I want to. I want to believe just like everybody else in something that's greater than us. Right? [01:08:44] Speaker B: And it's like, why do we feel that? [01:08:47] Speaker A: Hope, I guess. And that in me, that's for me, because, like, obviously, I'm probably like everybody. [01:08:54] Speaker B: Else, but why are we oriented that way? I mean, I think about that, too. I mean, why are we oriented towards. [01:09:00] Speaker A: Like, inclined towards hope not? [01:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, a hope I can kind of understand because I think it has a survival. Like, I think that having hope be rooted in our sense of survival. Right. Like, you know, we are wired for survival. And so to me, I could see where hope is something that encourages that sense of, like, I don't want to end my life. Right. [01:09:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:26] Speaker B: But what I was thinking more about, or what I was referring to, was when you said that there's something greater than me. Like, I wonder why we are oriented that way, that many, many of us are oriented toward the belief that there is something greater than I want to. [01:09:42] Speaker A: Believe that I want to. [01:09:44] Speaker B: But also, you live your life in that way. [01:09:47] Speaker A: I don't, though. I think, really, I don't know if. I don't know if anything's great at all. [01:09:51] Speaker B: Go back to what you were just talking about in the beginning. You were just like, I want peace, and I want. [01:09:56] Speaker A: I do. Yeah. [01:09:56] Speaker B: But, like, so that is something. A belief in something or a desire for something greater that's also. [01:10:01] Speaker A: But, like, it. In the vat. In the saying greater than me, it's like, I also live with the same kind of, like, mind that, like, this is all purposeless and none of it matters. If we all died tomorrow, fuck it. It would mean nothing to the universe, and there is actually no meaning whatsoever other than what we give to it. So, like. [01:10:24] Speaker B: But why do we give meaning to things then? [01:10:26] Speaker A: I don't know. I I wouldn't have know that. I think it's, like, probably, like, we need it, right? Like. Like, as a. It's a functional thing. We need some kind of meaning or something to get along. [01:10:39] Speaker B: And that's unique to humans, you think? [01:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah, like, I mean, there are so many things that are you. Like. I mean, I don't know if they are, right. But it's like, obviously, like, doing math is unique to humans. Right. We don't have any other kind of thing that we could say, even though I think, like, I don't know if that's true. Like, I don't know if there's ever been any studies where it's, like, apes. Yeah. Like an eight. Yeah. Oh, two bananas, maybe. Maybe. I don't know. But, like, that doesn't say anything about, like, those same. Like, if you gave that a. But, like, an equation. [01:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:11:14] Speaker A: It would probably just be like, what. [01:11:15] Speaker B: About empathy and rats, you know, that's something that's been studied. They've shown that that rats show empathy. [01:11:21] Speaker A: Really? [01:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Many studies have been done that show that rats feel empathy toward one another. That's a very curious thing to me, too. [01:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. I don't know. A lot of those things is where it's like, those hu. Like, that's another thing, too. Is that, like, either these things exit? Like, I don't. This is something I'm not really well versed in, but there's, like, a. The whole, like, idea about, like, conceptual. Like, this abstract reality that exists that's, like, passed to us, right. That we, like, we look at and we're like, oh, there it is. Like, we can. It's, like, higher than. Like. [01:11:59] Speaker B: It's almost like a download or something. [01:12:01] Speaker A: Those forms, you know, they exist. [01:12:04] Speaker B: They exist out here. And somehow we access or download them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:12:08] Speaker A: Where it's like. [01:12:09] Speaker B: And would you conceive of that as being different than young's collective unconscious? Or do you see a parallel? [01:12:14] Speaker A: It could be. I. Like, I'm not, like. Again, I don't know about that either, but, like, it could be. Right? Like, where it's like, something like that is, um. It could be. It's just like, how would you. [01:12:26] Speaker B: Like, how do we know, right. [01:12:28] Speaker A: Yeah, there's like. I think there's some kind of, like. That's what Colin McGinn actually said in that book is that there are just some questions we'll never have the answer to.

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